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Thread: Show me the best arguments for progressivism please.

  1. #61
    Veteran Member bonehead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigLeRoy View Post
    I am deeply sorry that you found my arguments 'complex'.

    Maybe if you tried reading them more slowly??
    may I suggest the K.I.S.S. principle should be used in all political arguments. sure makes discussions less partisan.

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    Radical Centrist BigLeRoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Babba View Post
    Yeah. Conservatives are are just the bestest.
    Spookycolt actually thinks he 'won' that big debate on evolution that he started here a few months back.

    For Spooky, the clinching argument was when he asked why apes are still around, if apes evolved into humans. Which is like asking howcum your grandparents didn't die on the day you were born.
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  3. #63
    Anarquistador StanStill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jmayspaint View Post
    I'm a life long liberal. My father was a democrat, and active in local politics. As soon as I was old enough, I worked the polls with him. We were in the political minority in east TN, but there were a few victories. One was forcing the local government to allow other, secular documents to be placed along side the Ten Commandments display in the local court house.

    Lately though I'm hearing more convincing arguments coming from the right and those on the left that call themselves classical liberals.

    Commentators like Dave Rubin, Steven Crowder, Larry Elder, Ben Shapiro, etc.. are putting out content that is making me question the progressive agenda that most on the left seem to embrace.

    I know there are a lot of progressives here so I though this would be a good place to ask for references to the cream of the crop of progressive arguments.

    I fear that because of YouTube/Google algorithms I might be missing compelling counter arguments to the content I'm watching lately.

    For example, does anyone have a link to a good video explaining why identity politics is a good thing? Perhaps some thoughtful refutations of the classical liberal ideas that the modern left seems to have abandoned?

    Or anything at all in that vein.

    Kindly leave out any arguments that rely on calling ideological opponents an "ist" of some kind in an attempt to shut down conversation. TIA. ...

    Well it's a complicated question really, but I have to say a part of me cringes whenever I hear people talk about people in the modern day US being "progressives". It's just just a corny misplaced term lifted from a turn of the 20th century political movement. Liberals got wise to Reagan et al's attempt to demonize "liberalism" so, being history grad students they tried to rebrand as a revival of the movement once led by Teddy Roosevelt. Everyone loves Teddy, they thought. Naturally, few people have any notion about the original Progressive movement outside of the grad student clique, so it quickly just became a synonym for "really liberal". Over the years people have (with straight faces) insisted that they mean two different things, but if you ask 10 different people you get 10 different answers as to what they mean by "progressive". I think it mostly just means "Willing to shop at Trader Joe's or Whole Foods in a pinch, but prefer not to shop at chain stores".

    Anyhoo, the other thing I'm very suspicious of is the term "identity politics". I guess technically it just means people of a certain group, (defined by pretty much anything you can think of) petitioning government (or society as a whole) for redress of grievances, protection of rights, access to equal protection as other groups... whatever. Pretty embedded in the idea of American. But no one really means that. For some reason, the NRA is not engaged in identity politics, but BLM is. So the definition really means more than the actual definition. It means "those fucking leftist activists complaining about things I think are stupid". In my opinion, that isn't a good definition.

    That said, I do think there is a problem going on within political discourse today. I think there is a sort of lack of philosophical principle that is shaping a lot of the thinking. It's like both sides have been on auto pilot for so long, that no one remembers where they departed from or where they are going. I'm another one that was pretty big on a reading a lot of the Enlightenment era philosophers in college, but I get the impression that young leftists in college today don't really bother. It's like they are being told not to read anything by anyone who isn't alive because they were probably sexist homophobes anyway, so it is better to be on the safe side and ignore them.

  4. #64
    Radical Centrist BigLeRoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StanStill View Post
    Well it's a complicated question really, but I have to say a part of me cringes whenever I hear people talk about people in the modern day US being "progressives". It's just just a corny misplaced term lifted from a turn of the 20th century political movement. Liberals got wise to Reagan et al's attempt to demonize "liberalism" so, being history grad students they tried to rebrand as a revival of the movement once led by Teddy Roosevelt. Everyone loves Teddy, they thought. Naturally, few people have any notion about the original Progressive movement outside of the grad student clique, so it quickly just became a synonym for "really liberal". Over the years people have (with straight faces) insisted that they mean two different things, but if you ask 10 different people you get 10 different answers as to what they mean by "progressive". I think it mostly just means "Willing to shop at Trader Joe's or Whole Foods in a pinch, but prefer not to shop at chain stores".

    Anyhoo, the other thing I'm very suspicious of is the term "identity politics". I guess technically it just means people of a certain group, (defined by pretty much anything you can think of) petitioning government (or society as a whole) for redress of grievances, protection of rights, access to equal protection as other groups... whatever. Pretty embedded in the idea of American. But no one really means that. For some reason, the NRA is not engaged in identity politics, but BLM is. So the definition really means more than the actual definition. It means "those fucking leftist activists complaining about things I think are stupid". In my opinion, that isn't a good definition.

    That said, I do think there is a problem going on within political discourse today. I think there is a sort of lack of philosophical principle that is shaping a lot of the thinking. It's like both sides have been on auto pilot for so long, that no one remembers where they departed from or where they are going. I'm another one that was pretty big on a reading a lot of the Enlightenment era philosophers in college, but I get the impression that young leftists in college today don't really bother. It's like they are being told not to read anything by anyone who isn't alive because they were probably sexist homophobes anyway, so it is better to be on the safe side and ignore them.
    Agree that not enough people are reading the Enlightenment philosophers anymore, but this is just as true of conservatives as it is of liberals and progressives. Really, EVERY college student should be reading some Adam Smith, David Hume, Montesquieu, Rousseau, Thomas Hobbes, John Locke, David Ricardo, John Stuart Mill-----at least EXCERPTS that are carefully chosen.
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  5. #65
    Veteran Member bonehead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigLeRoy View Post
    Agree that not enough people are reading the Enlightenment philosophers anymore, but this is just as true of conservatives as it is of liberals and progressives. Really, EVERY college student should be reading some Adam Smith, David Hume, Montesquieu, Rousseau, Thomas Hobbes, John Locke, David Ricardo, John Stuart Mill-----at least EXCERPTS that are carefully chosen.
    and we all should have a PHD in literature and Philosophy - but I'm thinking that's not gonna happen. people care about what is immediately gonna affect their lives, not what dead smart people said.
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  6. #66
    Anarquistador StanStill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigLeRoy View Post
    Agree that not enough people are reading the Enlightenment philosophers anymore, but this is just as true of conservatives as it is of liberals and progressives. Really, EVERY college student should be reading some Adam Smith, David Hume, Montesquieu, Rousseau, Thomas Hobbes, John Locke, David Ricardo, John Stuart Mill-----at least EXCERPTS that are carefully chosen.
    Oh, I definitely meant everyone, but I just don't care as much about people on the right not reading the classics because they usually proudly proclaim their disdain for things like democracy and equality, so I would expect they would avoid the writers who spent a lifetime laying out why those things are necessary for a civil society. Adam Smith is a great example of one they supposedly love—because capitalism—but never bothered to read.
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  7. #67
    Radical Centrist BigLeRoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bonehead View Post
    and we all should have a PHD in literature and Philosophy - but I'm thinking that's not gonna happen. people care about what is immediately gonna affect their lives, not what dead smart people said.
    What do people go to college for, if NOT to be exposed to the great ideas in the history of our civilization?

    In truth, we are sending FAR too MANY young people to college, young people who have no curiosity, who have no interest in the intellectual riches that a college education SHOULD consist of, and see it as just a 'four-year party' before they are expected to join the real world.
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  8. #68
    Veteran Member bonehead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigLeRoy View Post
    What do people go to college for, if NOT to be exposed to the great ideas in the history of our civilization?

    In truth, we are sending FAR too MANY young people to college, young people who have no curiosity, who have no interest in the intellectual riches that a college education SHOULD consist of, and see it as just a 'four-year party' before they are expected to join the real world.
    when the trade schools and technical training get cut, many jobs are lost in the shuffle. there is a shortage in these fields, but no applicants qualify for the openings. do they teach carpentry, electrical wiring and plumbing in college?

  9. #69
    Radical Centrist BigLeRoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bonehead View Post
    when the trade schools and technical training get cut, many jobs are lost in the shuffle. there is a shortage in these fields, but no applicants qualify for the openings. do they teach carpentry, electrical wiring and plumbing in college?
    We are sending too MANY young people to college, and not nearly ENOUGH to trade and vocational schools. College is not INTENDED to teach things like carpentry, electrical wiring and plumbing.
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  10. #70
    Veteran Member bonehead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigLeRoy View Post
    We are sending too MANY young people to college, and not nearly ENOUGH to trade and vocational schools. College is not INTENDED to teach things like carpentry, electrical wiring and plumbing.
    yet the thought process, as communicated to our students, is that one must have a college degree to be successful. where is the disconnect?
    Thanks from MaryAnne

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