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Thread: Show me the best arguments for progressivism please.

  1. #1
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    Show me the best arguments for progressivism please.

    I'm a life long liberal. My father was a democrat, and active in local politics. As soon as I was old enough, I worked the polls with him. We were in the political minority in east TN, but there were a few victories. One was forcing the local government to allow other, secular documents to be placed along side the Ten Commandments display in the local court house.

    Lately though I'm hearing more convincing arguments coming from the right and those on the left that call themselves classical liberals.

    Commentators like Dave Rubin, Steven Crowder, Larry Elder, Ben Shapiro, etc.. are putting out content that is making me question the progressive agenda that most on the left seem to embrace.

    I know there are a lot of progressives here so I though this would be a good place to ask for references to the cream of the crop of progressive arguments.

    I fear that because of YouTube/Google algorithms I might be missing compelling counter arguments to the content I'm watching lately.

    For example, does anyone have a link to a good video explaining why identity politics is a good thing? Perhaps some thoughtful refutations of the classical liberal ideas that the modern left seems to have abandoned?

    Or anything at all in that vein.

    Kindly leave out any arguments that rely on calling ideological opponents an "ist" of some kind in an attempt to shut down conversation. TIA.




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    Galactic Ruler Spookycolt's Avatar
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    Identity politics are never a good thing but it has enveloped the current progressivism in the democratic party.

    As opposed to classical liberalism which focused on people as a whole, think utilitarianism, the new democratic party focuses on groups which leads them to their war on this or war on that, it's extremely divisive (you're with us or against us) and its the reason they are losing so much.

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    Spock of Vulcan Ian Jeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spookycolt View Post
    As opposed to classical liberalism which focused on people as a whole, think utilitarianism....
    Classical liberalism and utilitarianism are two different things. (Yes, I have read both Locke and Mill, e.g.)

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    Galactic Ruler Spookycolt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Jeffrey View Post
    Classical liberalism and utilitarianism are two different things. (Yes, I have read both Locke and Mill, e.g.)
    Yes ideologically they are but their ultimate goal, the benefit of the greater number of people is still the same, one just does it on an individual basis while utilitarianism does it with policy mostly.

    Throw in identity politics under the guise of progressivism and the "greater good" no longer is the priority, the specific groups aims are whether the overall effect for the nation is good or bad.

    We see this all over in the democratic party at the moment.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Jeffrey View Post
    Classical liberalism and utilitarianism are two different things. (Yes, I have read both Locke and Mill, e.g.)
    I haven't read Locke or Mill in detail, only excerpts and modern commentaries on their work.
    Many of those ideas seem compelling to me, the focus on the individual particularly.

    I read a lot here and your one of my favorite posters.

    What's curious to me is how the modern left seem to have abandoned the ideas of Locke and Mill in favor of (seemingly) derivatives of Marxism.

    I can't see how this could be a good idea, but I want to hear the best arguments.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Spookycolt View Post
    Identity politics are never a good thing but it has enveloped the current progressivism in the democratic party.

    As opposed to classical liberalism which focused on people as a whole, think utilitarianism, the new democratic party focuses on groups which leads them to their war on this or war on that, it's extremely divisive (you're with us or against us) and its the reason they are losing so much.
    I've heard the argument that modern identity politics is the continuation of the failed Marxists experiments of the 20'th century.

    The class division struggle of worker vs capitalist didn't really fly in the west, given the overall boon capitalism brought to most citizens, and the disastrous attempts at Marxist style societies we saw during that period.

    Cultural Marxism is the next step. Place the narrative of oppression in the context of race instead of class.

    I thought that was an interesting argument.
    Refutations please.




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    Galactic Ruler Spookycolt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jmayspaint View Post
    I haven't read Locke or Mill in detail, only excerpts and modern commentaries on their work.
    Many of those ideas seem compelling to me, the focus on the individual particularly.

    I read a lot here and your one of my favorite posters.

    What's curious to me is how the modern left seem to have abandoned the ideas of Locke and Mill in favor of (seemingly) derivatives of Marxism.

    I can't see how this could be a good idea, but I want to hear the best arguments.


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    You really should read these guys, all of our current political philosophy is based off of them. Add in Nozick and Kant to your readings also.

    To answer your question, Locke and Mills idea of liberty proved to ultimately be a failed concept when applied on a societal basis.

    It simply didn't work.

    It was rejected for the theory of Hobbes.

    Basically it boils down to Locke and Mills believing that people were inherently good and would act in the best interests of the group while people like Hobbes believed people were inherently selfish and could only form a successful society if they were under strict rules from the state.

    Of course that is a very, very general explanation but it turns out that Hobbes was more accurate.

    Now you can tie these philosophies into your original question of identity politics which are firmly rooted in the idea of personal liberty over the greater good of a society. People like Hobbes and Kant believed in "the rule of law" trumping individual liberty which ultimately could lead to anarchism if not careful.
    Thanks from Jmayspaint

  8. #8
    nic
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jmayspaint View Post
    I've heard the argument that modern identity politics is the continuation of the failed Marxists experiments of the 20'th century.

    The class division struggle of worker vs capitalist didn't really fly in the west, given the overall boon capitalism brought to most citizens, and the disastrous attempts at Marxist style societies we saw during that period.

    Cultural Marxism is the next step. Place the narrative of oppression in the context of race instead of class.

    I thought that was an interesting argument.
    Refutations please.




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    Read this: https://www.thomhartmann.com/blog/20...m-around-world
    Thanks from Jmayspaint and labrea

  9. #9
    Galactic Ruler Spookycolt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nic View Post
    lol, its funny how quickly you forget all of this once you get out of school.

    I need to put down the video games and pick up some books again.
    Thanks from Ian Jeffrey

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    Veteran Member cpicturetaker12's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spookycolt View Post
    identity politics are never a good thing but it has enveloped the current progressivism in the democratic party.

    As opposed to classical liberalism which focused on people as a whole, think utilitarianism, the new democratic party focuses on groups which leads them to their war on this or war on that, it's extremely divisive (you're with us or against us) and its the reason they are losing so much.
    locao!!!

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