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Thread: When will the Left accept that Socialism was an illusion?

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    Veteran Member Czernobog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Czernobog View Post
    Right about the same time as our nation stops building public roads, public schools, publicly funded police forces, and publicly funded firehouses.

    More importantly when are you going to stop talking about this mythical "Left", as if every single person who is not a conservative believes, and behaves exactly the same way?
    Whaddoyakno? @Rob Larrikin's got nuffin, surprising...no one.
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  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Czernobog View Post
    Right about the same time as our nation stops building public roads, public schools, publicly funded police forces, and publicly funded firehouses.
    The United States isn’t a socialist state, yet. Here’s the definition of socialism:

    Socialism

    noun

    noun: socialism

    1. a political and economic theory of social organization that advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

    synonyms: leftism, welfarism;

    radicalism, progressivism, social democracy; communism, Marxism, labor movement

    "my appreciation for certain aspects of socialism does not mean I'm a socialist"

    o policy or practice based on the political and economic theory of socialism.

    synonyms: leftism, welfarism;

    radicalism, progressivism, social democracy;

    communism, Marxism, labor movement

    "my appreciation for certain aspects of socialism does not mean I'm a socialist"

    o (in Marxist theory) a transitional social state between the overthrow of capitalism and the realization of communism.


    More importantly when are you going to stop talking about this mythical "Left", as if every single person who is not a conservative believes, and behaves exactly the same way?
    The Left is not mythical – here is the definition:


    Left wing

    noun

    noun: left wing; plural noun: left wings; noun: leftwing; plural noun: leftwings

    1. 1.
    the liberal, socialist, or radical section of a political party or system.

    2. 2.
    the left side of a team on the field in soccer, rugby, and field hockey.

    "his usual position on the left wing"

    o the left side of an army.

    "the Allied left wing"

    adjective

    adjective: left-wing; adjective: left wing; adjective: leftwing

    1. 1.
    liberal, socialist, or radical.
    "left-wing activists"

    synonyms: liberal, leftist, left-of-center, left-leaning; More
    socialist, communist;

    Labor/Labour, Marxist, Bolshevik; informalcommie, lefty, red, pinko

    "the committee's left-wing policies"

    antonyms: right-wing, conservative

  3. #13
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    No.

    That is a tenet of the Leftist Faith.
    Thanks from Rob Larrikin

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    Member Iolo's Avatar
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    When will the Left accept that Socialism was an illusion?

    When the bosses' arse-lickers disappear up- their own and leave the world cleansed.
    Thanks from BitterPill, PACE and MaryAnne

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Larrikin View Post
    On another thread someone said that that the Soviet Union was not socialist. I looked up ‘USSR’ in various online resources to show that indeed, the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics was indeed socialist.

    "The economic foundation of the U.S.S.R. was “Socialist ownership of the means of production, distribution, and exchange,” and the economy of the entire country was controlled by a series of five-year plans that set targets for all forms of production."

    If you look at Encyclopaedia Britannica, under the definition of USSR, it gives a three page definition. At the end of the third page in the last summarizing paragraph, it concludes by saying:

    Economic failure was the key reason for the U.S.S.R.’s collapse. The socialist alternative to the market economy turned out to be an illusion.”

    https://www.britannica.com/place/Sov...m-1953-to-1991

    The question is, when are the Left going to admit that it was an illusion and give up? It’s been 26 years for fuck’s sake. How long are they going to continue living in La La Land?

    .
    Pinochet proved that capitalism gets along well with totalitarian governments.
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  6. #16
    Veteran Member Czernobog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Larrikin View Post
    The United States isn’t a socialist state, yet.
    No one is suggesting that the United States is a socialist state, and no one...well, no intelligent person wants the United States to be a socialist state. However, no one with any intelligence wants the United States to be a purely capitalist state either. Extremes are bad for the country, bad for the citizens, and bad for the economy, whether that extreme is socialism, or capitalism. What everyone, whether right or left, with any intelligence wants is a balance between the two. And the whole point of our political arena is to find that balance that works best for the most good for the most people. You act like anyone who supports any social program wants to turn the entire country into the USSR. Sorry, Rob, that just isn't so.

    I have no time for extremists who want a purely socialist America. I also have no time for extremists who want a purely capitalist America. Are you the latter? Or do you understand that a truly successful America is a healthy balance of each?

    By the way, you'll notice I deleted your "definitions". I don't waste time discussing "definitions" that have no source.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Czernobog View Post
    no intelligent person wants the United States to be a socialist state.
    There are plenty of intelligent thieves around. Some are very cunning. Millions of them would like nothing better than to have organized, legal looting, which is all socialism is.

    However, no one with any intelligence wants the United States to be a purely capitalist state either.
    We used to be much closer to a purely capitalist state in the past, and those days provided us with great things, like the American Constitution. When the government has its nose and claws in everything, you get far less creativity, far less innovation, and far less advances in science. Why do you think 42% of Americans continue to believe that God created humans in their present form 10,000 years ago, a view that has changed little over the past three decades?

    In U.S., 42% Believe Creationist View of Human Origins | Gallup

    Extremes are bad for the country, bad for the citizens, and bad for the economy, whether that extreme is socialism, or capitalism.
    Saying that 100% capitalism is an “extreme” is like saying that allowing all cream to be cream is extreme. You take something that is perfectly normal and natural (capitalism), and begin adding government interference to it, making it less productive, and hamstringing it. When someone suggests you remove all the government interference you call that “extreme”.

    All displayed paintings are as they are; 100% normal paintings, hanging up on walls in private homes, buildings or art galleries. Are they “extreme”? No. They are simply paintings hanging on walls, doing nobody any harm. In fact they do a lot of good.

    Now, a big sticky-beak gummint comes along and says, “We should regulate these paintings more.” They begin by taxing anyone who wants to hang a painting, calling it the “hanging paintings tax”. Immediately, overnight, millions of paintings are taken down. Hanging paintings become rare, as millions are stored away in dark rooms and corners. Then the gummint says, “The color blue will not be allowed in hanging paintings, unless it is exactly THIS shade of blue,” and they provide an example of a certain plain pastel blue.

    Overnight millions more paintings are taken down around the U.S., and any that remain hanging are the center of great debate. “How do we replace the blue?” people ask. “Don’t worry,” say the gummint. “We will send people around to paint the blue over any existing blue you have,” and with that, tens of thousands of painters are dispatched to make the adjustments.

    Some years later, a similar rule is brought out, saying, “All yellow in paintings must be replaced with this yellow,” and millions of paintings are taken down. Those that remain are ‘adjusted’ by the gummint. After a few more years, and a few more gummint regulations, there are no genuine paintings hanging. Millions of horrible ‘gummint overseen’ paintings still hang, but they all have that same awful gummint look about them, what with all having the same colors and so on. All the truly beautiful paintings are hidden away, waiting for the day when all this nonsense goes away.

    One day a man stands up and denounces the gummint for ruining Art. He says, “We should remove gummint from paintings 100%!”

    A passerby says, “No, if you want to remove SOME of the gummint, that’s okay, but ONLY some. Otherwise it would be too extreme.”

    “What did you have in mind then?” asks the first man.

    “Well,” the passerby suggests, “why not let yellow be returned to the paintings the way it was, but leave all the other rules in place? After all, letting paintings just be paintings, without gummint rules, would be very, very dangerous.”

    Of course we all know that is nonsense. Removing such gummint red tape from art would allow great art to be created and shown across the country, to the benefit of all. That’s not “extreme” at all. Tangling it up in red and green tape is what is extreme.

    I have no time for extremists who want a purely socialist America. I also have no time for extremists who want a purely capitalist America. Are you the latter? Or do you understand that a truly successful America is a healthy balance of each?
    The rule of law, the courts, a few bureacrats and, if necessary, the police and military, are all the government we need. The rest will take care of itself, and things will be much better for all if gummint is told to do its job and keep its beak out of other people’s business. When someone breaks a law they will be taken to court, judged, and if found guilty, punished. Life goes on.

    By the way, you'll notice I deleted your "definitions". I don't waste time discussing "definitions" that have no source.
    Google is your friend. There are better references, but this was just to show you that socialism is socialism, and left winged is indeed left winged.

    https://www.google.com/search?source....0.ij99M7arJ_A

    https://www.google.com/search?q=left...k1.vQsMcfYHQu4

    A lot of people think there is no such thing as ‘right wing’ or ‘left wing’. That’s a myth.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Czernobog View Post
    Right about the same time as our nation stops building public roads, public schools, publicly funded police forces, and publicly funded firehouses.

    More importantly when are you going to stop talking about this mythical "Left", as if every single person who is not a conservative believes, and behaves exactly the same way?
    Very true.

    And it's just as true that every single person who IS a conservative does not represent the mythical "Right".

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    Speaking of courts, you might be interested in this @Rob Larrikin:

    Democrats on the budget committee objected to a Republican-backed change allowing any lawsuit involving Foxconn to be appealed directly to the Wisconsin Supreme Court, skipping the state appeals court. No other Wisconsin business is granted that expedited appeals process. It would also require any lower court ruling to be put on hold pending action from the Supreme Court, which conservatives control 5-2. Under current law, a judge must put a ruling on hold while an appeal is pending.

    Wisconsin panel changes court rules for Foxconn plant - StarTribune.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by labrea View Post
    Speaking of courts, you might be interested in this @Rob Larrikin:
    It's complicated, but if Foxconn set up there, and employ 13,000 people, there are many other people who will benefit, because many other businesses will need to supply it. So the real effect isn't 13,000 extra jobs, but probably 10 times that, or say, 130,000. Even if you just say 100,000 extra jobs all up, then you must ask, what would the welfare bill be if this didn't happen? 100,000 people, on $10,000 welfare dollars a year, equals 15 billion dollars in 15 years. On the other hand, if the government pays Foxconn 190 million per year over 15 years (2.85 billion), it saves about 12 billion dollars.

    The reason conservatives might do this is thanks to (a) welfare, and (b) income tax. Take those out of the picture and there would be no need.

    In the world I would prefer, there would be no welfare, no income tax and thus no government helping private business.

    .
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