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Thread: The art of debate...

  1. #11
    Veteran Member Dr.Knuckles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BitterPill View Post
    Let us use your example to put Socratic debate to work: You claim some argue that not all men are mortal, but who are these immortal men? Certainly not Socrates since he died by hemlock. And if Socrates were a vampire, forgiving that such a thing could be true, wouldn't it take a wooden stake to kill him?
    Well done. But I have to win. I think that debating = me picking a random side and winning.

    "Sagitarians, like Bitter Pill, will tell you that Socrates died by poison. A sagitarian lie. That's what Sagitarians do. They lie. Socrates is immortal. All the good, honest astrological groups know that. He is a vampire. Therefore he is living proof that the Sagitarian lie of "mortality" is just that... another lie by Sagitarisns.
    Last edited by Dr.Knuckles; 7th September 2017 at 10:45 PM.

  2. #12
    Bizarroland Observer Thx1138's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmanmcfly View Post
    When did we give up on logic and reason as the foundation of debate?Going from presenting blogs as undeniable fact and attacking when a contrary opinion is presented.

    The haste with which the majority of debate devolves into ad hominem or other fallacious debate techniques...

    Have we forgotten that in debate the first person who resorts to attacking the person has essentially given up and is accepting defeat?
    Oh shit, when did the GOP on this board ever show that tendency, let's start right there?!

    You GOP use every trick in the book, I refer to you lot as "dishonest brokers" for good reason!

    A friend of mine and I were talking about the political situation at present, she said the Trump robots were just crazy...

    And I explained that what we see now in the media and among the electorate is the same crap we have been dealing with at PH for at least the six years I have been here: the baloney you people peddle has finally made it to the mainstream.

    Hey, dishonesty works, the honest guy, the "good guy" DOES finish last when the opponent is willing to go to ANY means to accomplish their objective...

    But please... don't put on like you are a victim here, we have read your posts...

    Thx
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  3. #13
    The Covfefe are Coming! BitterPill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Knuckles View Post
    Well done. But I have to win. I think that debating = me picking a random side and running.

    "Sagitarians, like Bitter Pill, will tell you that Socrates died by poison. A sagitarian lie. That's what Sagitariabs do. They lie. Socrates is immortal. All the good, honest astrological groups know that. He is a vampire. Therefore he is living proof that the Sagitarian lie of "mortality" is just that... another lie by Sagitarisns.
    OK... I give up. Perhaps the Socratic method is of no use at all.
    Thanks from Dr.Knuckles

  4. #14
    Telecastin' Blues63's Avatar
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    I'm lovin' this 'victim mentality'. The hypocrisy is making my lungs bleed with laughter.

    Going from presenting blogs as undeniable fact and attacking when a contrary opinion is presented.
    Classic misrepresentation. Blogs can contain valid material and some blogs are nothing more than an on line anthology of legitimate material collated owing to relevance to a given subject. Probably the lack of any valid reason for dismissal of a blog as evidence (if the material is sound) would cause frustration and elicit a hostile response. For example, I once gave you C.J. Newson's excellent 'blog' on the Pentagon Attack on 9/11. C.J. had worked interminably on collating this material for several years and it was all accurate and well sourced. You dismissed it out of hand owing to the fact that the material was collated on a blog. That was not honest debate.

    Have we forgotten that in debate the first person who resorts to attacking the person has essentially given up and is accepting defeat?
    No, that doesn't necessarily follow. Some can be frustrated by the sheer stupidity evinced by some individuals who pretend to be dumber than a bag of hammers. Others can be frustrated by individuals who continually attempt to evade and distract from the topic. There are those who will try any trick to evade the topic. For example, you raved on and on about me not having presented an argument, when I clearly had. It delayed discussion of the topic for pages. That was not honest debate.

    Let's Fischer-Price this.

    1) A contention, or point for discussion is presented with supporting evidence.

    2) Others see points they feel need addressing to be convinced of the contention, and argue this with pertinent and cogent examples.

    3) The presenter counters evidence with a reasoned explanation supported with evidence.

    4) The process may continue until all rational explanations and doubts have been presented.

    5) The quality of the evidence and the attention to detail make for quality debate, and the winner will be ultimately the individual who presented the soundest case based upon available evidence.

    This is the ideal, however, most threads fall down on step 3, and that is where the OP often loses the debate. The thread may continue for another fifty pages, but if step 3 hasn't been fulfilled, it was already a lost cause. Quite often, a premise is flawed and the thread is lost for the OP before the whistle blew.
    Last edited by Blues63; 7th September 2017 at 10:47 PM.

  5. #15
    Swamper chaos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Knuckles View Post
    What is the opposite of "mainstream media"?

    Niche media.

    Meaning - media specifically created to appeal to, and satisfy, the desires and prejudices and expectations of only a specific "type" of viewer. There is no other word for that except "propaganda".

    Whatever the sins of media aimed at the broadest possible market, it's still WAY better than media specifically created to please the prejudices of a particular group.

    Not ideal. Maybe not even any good. But WAY better than the other option.
    It is very difficult to find my niche media but a good litmus test is they are denied funding. That means they can not be bought by special interest and are forced to be credible to their audience.

  6. #16
    Veteran Member Dr.Knuckles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BitterPill View Post
    OK... I give up. Perhaps the Socratic method is of no use at all.
    It's exactly as useful as the judges deem it.

    The judges are supposed to be the voters.

    But that's problem two. What do you do when the judges have decided it would be more fun to join one teams cheerleading squad.

  7. #17
    Veteran Member Dr.Knuckles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chaos View Post
    It is very difficult to find my niche media but a good litmus test is they are denied funding. That means they can not be bought by special interest and are forced to be credible to their audience.
    Or they can spin their own yarn for their own purpose. Money is not their goal. They are happy to spend in order to spread their little ideologies

  8. #18
    Veteran Member Dr.Knuckles's Avatar
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    My litmus test is, do they publically retract errors? And is the editorial completely separated from the news?

    Reuters is mainstream. And they're excellent. And American.

  9. #19
    Swamper chaos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Knuckles View Post
    Or they can spin their own yarn for their own purpose. Money is not their goal. They are happy to spend in order to spread their little ideologies
    Your attempt to discredit independent media is a deflection of the fact that the MSM is bought and paid for by special interests. No one can make a serious argument to defend MSM.

  10. #20
    Telecastin' Blues63's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Knuckles View Post
    My litmus test is, do they publically retract errors? And is the editorial completely separated from the news?

    Reuters is mainstream. And they're excellent. And American.
    I remember a conversation with someone ranting about the MSM and praising the 'alternative' media. One reply asked, 'alternative to what? Reality?'
    Thanks from Ian Jeffrey and Babba

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