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Thread: New York's subway: bureaucracy, cronyism, and unions run amok

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    New York's subway: bureaucracy, cronyism, and unions run amok

    Bureaucratic red tape. Lack of competition. Unaccountable labor unions. It sounds like “waste, fraud, and abuse” that conservatives might fabricate to make the case for free-market reform. But it’s real, and it’s happening in the most famous city in America, as exposed by a bombshell New York Times investigation released Thursday.

    New York's subway: bureaucracy, cronyism, and unions run amok
    Thanks from pragmatic

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    For me the most disconcerting things about the subway is that there are still rats. More often than not you'll see them in the tracks which is fine, I suppose. I take the 7th Ave line, 1,2,3, to South Ferry and back to Times Square and best way to do it is to take a 2,3 express to Chambers and switch and vice versa on the trip back. One evening, I get off the 1, cross the platform to wait for the express 2,3 to Midtown and rats were on the actual platform. Seeing the people come, they scurried, so, ok, disgusting, but at least they ran away. 2 to 3 minutes later though, these rats were starting to creep back.....

    Chambers Street....not some obscure stop in the Outer Boroughs....

    The line they are talking about in the article is for the LIRR

    There are other 'big digs' going on too: For instance, the 2nd Avenue Line. They had been talking about that for maybe a century, literally decades. I sat in traffic due to cut and cover construction for that back in the 90s. They just never got it done of course. It was very much needed, the Lexington Avenue line was really jammed up. The 'Q' train now does relieve alot of the pressure on the 4,5,6, but it still isn't done, it still doesn't service East Harlem.

    Another one for water: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Yo...r_Tunnel_No._3

    You might remember this tunnel since it was featured in Die Hard with a Vengeance.

    They started this thing before I was born, it is still not done....

    And I will say this, they do have one genuinely decent defence....

    Digging in NYC, particularly Manhattan, its complicated.

    When I was a kid working in Midtown, they were getting ready to build the BoA tower on 42nd and 6th. They had a temporary structure there with things like a Dunkin Donuts, they took that stuff down and then there was an open 'pit' about 5-6 stories deep ITSELF. That revealed the cross section of what they were digging into. This is the stuff that actually supports these skyscrapers, the tourists all crane their necks up, but really what is supporting this is all this stuff under the ground and no, you can't just 'dig'
    Last edited by publius3; 1st January 2018 at 07:40 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by publius3 View Post
    For me the most disconcerting things about the subway is that there are still rats. More often than not you'll see them in the tracks which is fine, I suppose. I take the 7th Ave line, 1,2,3, to South Ferry and back to Times Square and best way to do it is to take a 2,3 express to Chambers and switch and vice versa on the trip back. One evening, I get off the 1, cross the platform to wait for the express 2,3 to Midtown and rats were on the actual platform. Seeing the people come, they scurried, so, ok, disgusting, but at least they ran away. 2 to 3 minutes later though, these rats were starting to creep back.....

    Chambers Street....not some obscure stop in the Outer Boroughs....

    The line they are talking about in the article is for the LIRR

    There are other 'big digs' going on too: For instance, the 2nd Avenue Line. They had been talking about that for maybe a century, literally decades. I sat in traffic due to cut and cover construction for that back in the 90s. They just never got it done of course. It was very much needed, the Lexington Avenue line was really jammed up. The 'Q' train now does relieve alot of the pressure on the 4,5,6, but it still isn't done, it still doesn't service East Harlem.

    Another one for water: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Yo...r_Tunnel_No._3

    You might remember this tunnel since it was featured in Die Hard with a Vengeance.

    They started this thing before I was born, it is still not done....

    And I will say this, they do have one genuinely decent defence....

    Digging in NYC, particularly Manhattan, its complicated.

    When I was a kid working in Midtown, they were getting ready to build the BoA tower on 42nd and 6th. They had a temporary structure there with things like a Dunkin Donuts, they took that stuff down and then there was an open 'pit' about 5-6 stories deep ITSELF. That revealed the cross section of what they were digging into. This is the stuff that actually supports these skyscrapers, the tourists all crane their necks up, but really what is supporting this is all this stuff under the ground and no, you can't just 'dig'
    Points for consideration, but there was comparative analysis behind this, so is there something particular about New York that makes it multiple times more complicated than elsewhere in the world?

    Trade unions, which have closely aligned themselves with Gov. Andrew M. Cuomo and other politicians, have secured deals requiring underground construction work to be staffed by as many as four times more laborers than elsewhere in the world, documents show. *snip

    “Nobody at the negotiating table is footing the bill,” which is how taxpayers end up paying some workers as much as $400 an hour and funding duplicative, unnecessary jobs that similar projects in other cities simply don’t have. *snip

    As the report explains, other cities that face the same challenges as New York are able to complete similar undertakings at a fraction of the cost.

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    Veteran Member Eve1's Avatar
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    Getting a massive amount of people in and out of N.Y. city is no easy task. Mass transit almost everywhere in the world is challenging and N.Y. is the most challenging hands down. Getting nepotism and cronyism out of that system would be a start. You pick on unions and sure they have their drawbacks but the real problem is awarding contracts in exchange for political favours that causes the greatest cost overruns and missed deadlines. At least in union deals a contract is a contract and set expenses are known. With infrastructure deals these are designed to pad pockets of politicians and CEO’s and the contracts are meaningless. These deals are designed by crooks for crooks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eve1 View Post
    Getting a massive amount of people in and out of N.Y. city is no easy task. Mass transit almost everywhere in the world is challenging and N.Y. is the most challenging hands down.
    On what evidence do you base this assertion? Most subways are in large cities. The investigative report shows costs in New York City are seven times the worldwide average.

    Got subway anger? Aim it at the unions - NY Daily News

    You pick on unions and sure they have their drawbacks but the real problem is awarding contracts in exchange for political favours that causes the greatest cost overruns and missed deadlines.
    And unions play an intimate role in this. They are the ones being awarded the contracts in exchange for political favors. Of course I'm picking on them. The report

    At least in union deals a contract is a contract and set expenses are known.
    This isn't a union-redeeming comment. Read the investigative report.

    With infrastructure deals these are designed to pad pockets of politicians and CEO’s
    You don't get to blame this on CEOs. Nice try though.

    These deals are designed by crooks for crooks.
    Except it sounds like you're refusing to acknowledge that the crooks are union leaders.

  6. #6
    the "good" prag pragmatic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    Bureaucratic red tape. Lack of competition. Unaccountable labor unions. It sounds like “waste, fraud, and abuse” that conservatives might fabricate to make the case for free-market reform. But it’s real, and it’s happening in the most famous city in America, as exposed by a bombshell New York Times investigation released Thursday.

    New York's subway: bureaucracy, cronyism, and unions run amok


    Interesting article.

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    Senior Member NeoVsMatrix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    On what evidence do you base this assertion? Most subways are in large cities. The investigative report shows costs in New York City are seven times the worldwide average.

    Got subway anger? Aim it at the unions - NY Daily News



    And unions play an intimate role in this. They are the ones being awarded the contracts in exchange for political favors. Of course I'm picking on them. The report



    This isn't a union-redeeming comment. Read the investigative report.



    You don't get to blame this on CEOs. Nice try though.



    Except it sounds like you're refusing to acknowledge that the crooks are union leaders.
    Rarely do i agree with you.. and union bashing as a sport is for you, not for me...

    Yet in this specific case, i agree that the unions and pay-for play politics in the MTA has created a mess, that probably cannot be fixed anymore, other than a complete shutdown and revamp.

    https://medium.com/[MENTION=15138]Jo...s-d0d23093b2d8

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    Quote Originally Posted by NeoVsMatrix View Post
    Rarely do i agree with you.. and union bashing as a sport is for you, not for me...

    Yet in this specific case, i agree that the unions and pay-for play politics in the MTA has created a mess, that probably cannot be fixed anymore, other than a complete shutdown and revamp.

    https://medium.com/[MENTION=15138]Jo...s-d0d23093b2d8
    Kudos for seeing things as they are. (broken link by the way)

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    Damn those unions, always beating up on those poor defenceless corporations!

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