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Thread: Americans Are Symbolic Conservatives & Operational Liberals

  1. #11
    Cat-tastic Babba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheWahoo View Post
    I will agree that those in rural communities have similar problems with those in urban communities, but not necessarily the same problems. Understand that when I reference rural communities that does not include the suburban areas neighboring large urban areas.

    Health care: Those in urban areas have rather immediate access to large specialty resources, many times, university based. In rural areas, the immediate resource is a small rural basically primary care facility. That even varies by state. In Maryland, I can count of one hand, if any, the number of hospitals under 100 beds. In West Virginia, I can count on one hand the number of hospitals over 100 beds. In rural areas, due to the lack of mass transits, it can be more difficult to even access primary care resources. I can say from personal professional experience, it is more difficult to find and staff facilities with the required professional and paraprofessionals. It is very difficult to attract doctors to establish practices in rural areas. Urban areas are where the money is. In the ERs of our rural facilities, the doctors and staff most times may actually know the person they are treating. My wife works in a university based trauma center and rarely actually knows the patient she is treating.

    Education: In most rural communities, there is one elementary, one middle and one high school. Many if not most do not have private or chartered schools, they are totally dependent on public education. But on some level that is to their advantage, because the classes tend to be smaller, discipline is greater and again, people tend to know each other and respond accordingly.

    Employment: In the rural communities the largest employers tend to be the government, the schools and the small community hospital. Most had only one other large employer, if any, they were such operations as paper mills and chicken processing plants. Other than local stores and services, employment venues are limited.

    Again, their problems are similar, but the population and geographical demographic make them different.
    So why do people in rural communities keep voting for Republicans if they're so dependent on the government?

  2. #12
    Veteran Member Panzareta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Babba View Post
    They do believe they are rugged individualists. They agreed with the stupid notion that Obama said "you didn't build that" when he was, in reality, pointing out that infrastructure we all contribute to is necessary for anyone to be successful and it does require individual initiative and work as well. The problem is that too many right wingers try to pretend it only requires what the individual does.

    I know, I'm doing exactly what the argument in Bajisima's link says I shouldn't do. But it's hard for me to allow untruths to just sit there.
    And yet they are just as likely to apply for farm bill benefits. Go figure

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Babba View Post
    So why do people in rural communities keep voting for Republicans if they're so dependent on the government?
    In rural areas, government is perceived to be local, not necessarily the state or federal governance. It should not be assumed that they want or desire to be dependent on government. Quite the opposite, coal miners want to work in the mines, those working in the paper mills do not care about or understand EPA regulations, they just want to work in the mill. If a mine closes or a mill closes due to government regulations, they see it as losing the ability to work and support their families. One can talk about retraining, but all they know is they are not allowed to work now.

    Now this is strictly my own observation based on my childhood in a rural mountain community, its my experience that the social center of the community was the church. Accordingly, due to the influence of the church and the religious rhetoric of the Republican party, many rural communities may be attracted to the Republican party. They may view the Democrat party as opposing their religious beliefs and values. Again, government is viewed as local, so it a governance beyond the local requires, for example, that a cross be removed from government property, that may not be popular with the community.
    Last edited by TheWahoo; 11th January 2018 at 10:25 AM.
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  4. #14
    Cat-tastic Babba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheWahoo View Post
    In rural areas, government is perceived to be local, not necessarily the state or federal governance. It should not be assumed that they want or desire to be dependent on government. Quite the opposite, coal miners want to work in the mines, those working in the paper mills do not care about or understand EPA regulations, they just want to work in the mill. If a mine closes or a mill closes due to government regulations, they see it as losing the ability to work and support their families. One can talk about retraining, but all they know is they are not allowed to work now.

    Now this is strictly my own observation based on my childhood in a rural mountain community, its my experience that the social center of the community was the church. Accordingly, due to the influence of the church and the religious rhetoric of the Republican party, many rural communities may be attracted to the Republican party. They may view the Democrat party as opposing their religious beliefs and values.
    It's a shame that too often they don't understand how dependent their state and local governments are on the federal government.

    I'll never understand why anyone would want to work in a coal mine especially with lax regulations. Or how they don't make the connection between the paper mill polluting their water or the air causing an epidemic of asthma in their children. But it isn't government regulations that have caused factory work to wane. I don't know how you make them understand that.

    It's fine that the church is the social center of any community, but I wish they would look at the actions of Republican politicians instead of their words.

    The bottom line is that the Republicans are not going to help them. If they'd give the Democrats a decade they would start to see positive changes in their lives and their communities. Just like what happened during the FDR era.
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  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by DebateDrone View Post
    That is ridiculous to believe the rural democrats need to be treated any differently than any other Democrat

    People have the same problems whether they live in a rural community or in a city.
    They have to be allowed to oppose abortion, for one thing. And rural people have different values than those in the urbs--and they vote on those values. Dems who require full-throated support for all elements of the Dem coalition inevitably make the party's tent smaller. And which elements are the ones that all Democrats have to support? The ones favored by their richest donors. That's what drives the liberal values side of Democrat politics.
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  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Babba View Post
    It's a shame that too often they don't understand how dependent their state and local governments are on the federal government.

    I'll never understand why anyone would want to work in a coal mine especially with lax regulations. Or how they don't make the connection between the paper mill polluting their water or the air causing an epidemic of asthma in their children. But it isn't government regulations that have caused factory work to wane. I don't know how you make them understand that.

    It's fine that the church is the social center of any community, but I wish they would look at the actions of Republican politicians instead of their words.

    The bottom line is that the Republicans are not going to help them. If they'd give the Democrats a decade they would start to see positive changes in their lives and their communities. Just like what happened during the FDR era.
    I understand the points that you express. Again, I can only respond with my perceptions based on my childhood in a rural mountain community. Why do people want to work in a coal mine, initially, let me respond by quoting Loretta Lynn's song, "I'm proud to be a coal miner's daughter". It's that pride in working, supporting one's family that overrides other considerations. Something that I learned over my lifetime, is that there is a difference between being country poor and city poor. Being in an isolated community, I knew we were poor, but I just thought that was the way most people lived. I didn't see the other side on a daily basis so to speak. Being country poor we also had the ability to be somewhat self sufficient. We grew our own fruits and vegetables, I still remember my mother, grandmother and aunt doing the canning and filling the shelves with mason jars. There was no hunting season, if we were hungry something died. My grandmother would buy patterns to be used to make our clothing. City poor do not have that same ability. That ability to be self sufficient causes a need to remain self sufficient, even if it means working in a coal mine or mill. Something that influences me to this day.

    As it relates to the impact of religion, it has very little to do with the personal actions of politicians. Rather is about the ability of the community to express and visibly show its religious belief anytime and anywhere, including local government property. Its more about prayer in school or a football field and crosses on any locale, not the actions of politicians. In God We Trust is not just some words.

    "If they would give the Democrats a decade" isn't going to do it. It's not that they oppose efforts to make positive changes for the future, but not at the expense of their ability to live and work now. How will they live and meet their needs during that decade and live and work now. If they hear that governmental regulations and interference is going to be reduced, it is welcomed because it is perceived that it will allow them to get back to work.

    There is a reason when looking at the map of the Country, the rural areas are red and the urban areas are blue. They do live differing lives with differing circumstances and differing views regarding the role of government in those lives. I have been fortunate to live and see both the rural and urban lifestyle. I honestly must admit that I am thankful for my rural roots.
    Last edited by TheWahoo; 11th January 2018 at 11:55 AM.

  7. #17
    Human Bean KnotaFrayed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bajisima View Post
    Democrats also have to let dems in rural areas exist in a different way than the cities. Be more tolerant of their needs. Farmers, coal miners, steel workers etc used to be all democrats, but got pushed aside for social issues. Just saw this on Politico and it sort of goes along with your link.

    https://www.politico.com/magazine/st...indiana-216273
    I'm confused. Are not Farmers, coal miners, steel workers, etc. all part of society? Is a society only "part" of a society? What is one of the biggest societal problems facing rural areas today?

    In my view as an Independent and having lived in both rural and urban places/settings, I see that people who are not doing so well at any particular time, search for something to blame, other than themselves. That does not mean that they are to blame (in some cases they are), but that in our minds, it is much easier to find something else to blame, than what we did. Again, this is not to imply that we are all to blame for what befalls us, but to point out that we look for something to blame and that it is easier and more comforting to think something outside of what we did, was to blame. That sets up the opportunity for those who recognize how people are looking for what is to blame, to seize and exploit that search to promote their political agenda, by pointing the finger at their opposition as to what is to blame for the woes of those looking for something to blame.

    What's amazing to me (or perhaps not, seeing what appears to be a decline in people engaging their brains to think in multiple directions) is how many people appeared to be convinced that a 70 year old person, with a life history of greed, gluttony, lying (to his spouses and others), narcissism, adultery and trying to cheat/defraud people suddenly cared/cares about them and they in turn, voted to elect him their "champion", sans nearly 3 million more votes that went to the loser, instead of him.

    I heard a program this morning that had farmers calling in to talk about Trump's recent visit and their thoughts on it. Unless someone chose the callers based only on their political views, most of the callers viewed Trump's address to them as a campaign speech that held NO specifics, no suggestion that Trump understood farming or the real concerns affecting farmers in this day and age. Granted it was an NPR program and I know NPR is considered (not totally sure why other than someone told someone else it's got a "liberal" bias, without their ever listening to it.). but there were farmers from all over the country and one farmer from North Dakota who spoke to the specifics of farming, as a farmer himself, who added because of politics, some of his fellow farmers refuse to discuss anything that even comes close to something that they can connect to "liberals".

    I think Trump's initial shiny bait/lure for the "working class" has or continues to lose its luster, as time allows Trump's constructs to be unproven and in some cases be shown to be BS and everything those who didn't vote for Trump, knew about Trump, are being exposed, BY Trump and his contradictions of himself and his blatant lying on camera, with nary a hint of caring that he is blatantly lying.

    As always, I could be wrong, but I am also aware of the other possibility.
    Last edited by KnotaFrayed; 11th January 2018 at 12:08 PM.
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  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by DebateDrone View Post
    That is ridiculous to believe the rural democrats need to be treated any differently than any other Democrat

    People have the same problems whether they live in a rural community or in a city.
    Actually, I agree with that in the sense that urban areas have different problems than rural areas. If the Dems want to get a maintain Congressional majorities, they have to recognize that people in ruaral Ohio, for example don't care all that much about all the things Dems keep saying they stand for. Dems need to offer an agenda of things that both red state and blue state Dems can agree on. I think they should focus on making the Medicaid expansion permanent, a public option added to Obamacare, funding SCHIP, letting people buy prescription drugs from Canada and other things that affect everyone and not just "standing" with women, immigrants and minorities. The whole country isn't like California.

    And I'd prefer they not declare a war on prescription opiates, because there's already enough red tape and extra regulations especially for Medicaid recipients. If someone isn't abusing the medication, there's no reason to cut them off just because teenagers are blaming their addiction problems on their doctors. That's utter horseshit and unless we're going to go after liquor stores who sell alcohol to the same person day in and day out, it's unfair to punish one sector of the population for the sins of others.

    And shut up about guns and let states manage those restrictions as they see fit.
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  9. #19
    Veteran Member bajisima's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Babba View Post
    Good article but it does point out some problems. Like, "At some point, Burns began talking about the time he was asked at work to train a new driver who was Muslim. He refused. “They’re taught to be nice to you,” he told Goodin, “and then they blow you up.” How do Democrats deal with that? I can't accept that. That's blatant discrimination. Goodin deals with it by saying nothing. I can't do that. And Goodin points out the problem.



    The problem is that the Muslims who live in this country are actual human beings who have a right to live their lives, too. I don't know how to get around that. I can get around our disagreement on guns. And I bet people like Delmis Burns could get around our disagreement on abortion. But the racism is a real sticking point for me.

    But accentuating jobs and the economy may work. But Democrats can't afford to alienate minorities, women or urbanites. I don't envy the Democratic leadership and any Democrats like Goodin.
    I think the only thing anyone can do is really ignore them on these points. If you engage them or challenge them, they dig in and up trying to find others like minded. By ignoring them, they feel alone. Eventually the next generation wont feel the same. I know its a hard thing for compassionate human beings, but logically if Americans identify more with democrats on policy but have a few "out there" views, then I suspect you dont want to alienate them. Of course you dont want to let them think they are right either but there can be a balance as these rural democrats have shown.

  10. #20
    Veteran Member bajisima's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DebateDrone View Post
    That is ridiculous to believe the rural democrats need to be treated any differently than any other Democrat

    People have the same problems whether they live in a rural community or in a city.
    Problems yes but beliefs, no. Just look at the Omaha mayoral race last year. The dem candidate agreed with the party on 90% of policy but not abortion since he was very religious. So the DNC refused to support him. The republican won. Same thing happens with guns. Its kind of nutty that if someone agrees with you 80% of the time but isnt supported the other 20%.

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