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Thread: Americans Are Symbolic Conservatives & Operational Liberals

  1. #21
    Veteran Member bajisima's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by splansing View Post
    Abortion is the lever that moves all kinds of would-be Democrats over to the GOP. And it's so energizing that they are all in. Everything that comes along with the comically cynical GOP stance on abortion is swallowed, hook, line, and sinker. Including handing over their own economic and political freedom.
    Thats because its their religion and thats off limits to many. I can tell you living in NH, that we have a ton of French Canadian immigrants here and that issue is why they will vote republican. The state pretty much agrees with democrats mostly but if a politician brings that to the forefront its over. They will vote for the republican and call it an attack on their faith.

  2. #22
    Veteran Member bajisima's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Babba View Post
    They do believe they are rugged individualists. They agreed with the stupid notion that Obama said "you didn't build that" when he was, in reality, pointing out that infrastructure we all contribute to is necessary for anyone to be successful and it does require individual initiative and work as well. The problem is that too many right wingers try to pretend it only requires what the individual does.

    I know, I'm doing exactly what the argument in Bajisima's link says I shouldn't do. But it's hard for me to allow untruths to just sit there.
    But to me at least, this is where democrats need better messaging. They easily could have stated that differently or made it simpler. Using terms like "you..." makes it personal. They could have explained it like you did, that roads are for everyone and we all benefit from them. Sometimes they get too cerebral or too long winded. Then social media blows it out of proportion to make it worse. Keep it simple.
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  3. #23
    Cat-tastic Babba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheWahoo View Post
    I understand the points that you express. Again, I can only respond with my perceptions based on my childhood in a rural mountain community. Why do people want to work in a coal mine, initially, let me respond by quoting Loretta Lynn's song, "I'm proud to be a coal miner's daughter". It's that pride in working, supporting one's family that overrides other considerations. Something that I learned over my lifetime, is that there is a difference between being country poor and city poor. Being in an isolated community, I knew we were poor, but I just thought that was the way most people lived. I didn't see the other side on a daily basis so to speak. Being country poor we also had the ability to be somewhat self sufficient. We grew our own fruits and vegetables, I still remember my mother, grandmother and aunt doing the canning and filling the shelves with mason jars. There was no hunting season, if we were hungry something died. My grandmother would buy patterns to be used to make our clothing. City poor do not have that same ability. That ability to be self sufficient causes a need to remain self sufficient, even if it means working in a coal mine or mill. Something that influences me to this day.

    As it relates to the impact of religion, it has very little to do with the personal actions of politicians. Rather is about the ability of the community to express and visibly show its religious belief anytime and anywhere, including local government property. Its more about prayer in school or a football field and crosses on any locale, not the actions of politicians. In God We Trust is not just some words.

    "If they would give the Democrats a decade" isn't going to do it. It's not that they oppose efforts to make positive changes for the future, but not at the expense of their ability to live and work now. How will they live and meet their needs during that decade and live and work now. If they hear that governmental regulations and interference is going to be reduced, it is welcomed because it is perceived that it will allow them to get back to work.

    There is a reason when looking at the map of the Country, the rural areas are red and the urban areas are blue. They do live differing lives with differing circumstances and differing views regarding the role of government in those lives. I have been fortunate to live and see both the rural and urban lifestyle. I honestly must admit that I am thankful for my rural roots.
    Everyone has pride in what they do. But pretending everything is going to go back to the way it was is just silly. I know, again, I'm not helping the Democrat's cause. But how long are these people going to believe someone can make a miracle happen? Coal mining and factory jobs are not ever going to exist in the numbers they did at one time. That's just reality. Politicians like Trump should be ashamed of themselves for selling them on BS. (Trump isn't bright enough to realize neither he nor anyone else can make those jobs come back.) But there are politicians who do lie and say it's just those nasty regulations that took your jobs away. And that's a lie.

    As far as rural people wanting to be able to incorporate religion into government, well, that just can't be and for good reason. It's time they learn those reasons. That's why when people like that say they want prayer in school or before high school football games I ask, "Which religion's prayers?" Suppose there's a Muslim on the football team. Would it be okay if a school representative lead everyone in a Muslim prayer. I suspect that wouldn't go over very well. It's time they recognize that they are not the only people who exist and life changes and moves on. Otherwise they're condemning their children to lives as poor as their own.
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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by bajisima View Post
    But to me at least, this is where democrats need better messaging. They easily could have stated that differently or made it simpler. Using terms like "you..." makes it personal. They could have explained it like you did, that roads are for everyone and we all benefit from them. Sometimes they get too cerebral or too long winded. Then social media blows it out of proportion to make it worse. Keep it simple.
    Yeah, he also said "guns and bibles" thing and the right shit their pants over it. For being so anti-PC they are sensitive when it's directed at them.
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  5. #25
    Veteran Member bajisima's Avatar
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    Another example was shown today on our local news. One of the Boston newspapers slammed the tax cuts as "crumbs to the dumb". Immediately following there was an outcry from the rural areas of "urban liberal elitists" who think a few bucks is crumbs by people in the outer areas.. Its another example of not wisely explaining an issue in a releatable way but instead choosing to call names..
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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Babba View Post
    Everyone has pride in what they do. But pretending everything is going to go back to the way it was is just silly. I know, again, I'm not helping the Democrat's cause. But how long are these people going to believe someone can make a miracle happen? Coal mining and factory jobs are not ever going to exist in the numbers they did at one time. That's just reality. Politicians like Trump should be ashamed of themselves for selling them on BS. (Trump isn't bright enough to realize neither he nor anyone else can make those jobs come back.) But there are politicians who do lie and say it's just those nasty regulations that took your jobs away. And that's a lie.

    As far as rural people wanting to be able to incorporate religion into government, well, that just can't be and for good reason. It's time they learn those reasons. That's why when people like that say they want prayer in school or before high school football games I ask, "Which religion's prayers?" Suppose there's a Muslim on the football team. Would it be okay if a school representative lead everyone in a Muslim prayer. I suspect that wouldn't go over very well. It's time they recognize that they are not the only people who exist and life changes and moves on. Otherwise they're condemning their children to lives as poor as their own.
    Again, I understand your points and do not totally disagree. My effort singularly was to state my perception based on my experience regarding the rural political mindset with a tendency to support the Republican party. There are differences in the concerns and perceived problems of rural versus urban folks. While those concerns and problem differences are influenced by beliefs and values, they are also impacted by varying population and geographic demographics between rural and urban areas. In my opinion, the "one size fits all" approach won't work and immediate needs should not be ignored. Being in the health care industry, it is my personal perception that federal legislation is developed via an urban view lacking a sufficient understanding of the varying needs of rural communities. Perhaps, related to government and religion, the urban perspective focuses on the "establishment" clause, while the rural perspective the "free exercise" clause or, at least, their perception of it. The bottom line, all I have is my perceptions based on my experiences and I most definitely do not have the answers. I do think that our political arena needs to be much, much less hostile if anyone's needs are going to be met.

    edit: Let me thank you for a civil, interesting and constructive discussion. While our discussions may have been few, that has been my experience with you so I look forward to our next discussion.
    Last edited by TheWahoo; 11th January 2018 at 12:33 PM.
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  7. #27
    Chaos in fourteen lines Minotaur's Avatar
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    They have been doing quite well where they get elected and always have. They serve a purpose. They are called Blue Dogs and that means they stay with their community needs. I didn't relate to the summations or examples. One Muslim example in particular was someone that needs to stay in the republican party. lol

  8. #28
    Veteran Member bajisima's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minotaur View Post
    They have been doing quite well where they get elected and always have. They serve a purpose. They are called Blue Dogs and that means they stay with their community needs. I didn't relate to the summations or examples. One Muslim example in particular was someone that needs to stay in the republican party. lol
    But you have to be honest, in many areas there has been a sort of "war" on blue dogs. I remember several who have been primaried and lost and then the republican went on to win the general. There just are areas where "conservative" democrats do well, look at Joe Manchin. Yet he is being primaried for being "too right wing." lol Its just nutty.

  9. #29
    Chaos in fourteen lines Minotaur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Babba View Post
    Good article but it does point out some problems. Like, "At some point, Burns began talking about the time he was asked at work to train a new driver who was Muslim. He refused. “They’re taught to be nice to you,” he told Goodin, “and then they blow you up.” How do Democrats deal with that? I can't accept that. That's blatant discrimination. Goodin deals with it by saying nothing. I can't do that. And Goodin points out the problem.

    The problem is that the Muslims who live in this country are actual human beings who have a right to live their lives, too. I don't know how to get around that. I can get around our disagreement on guns. And I bet people like Delmis Burns could get around our disagreement on abortion. But the racism is a real sticking point for me.

    But accentuating jobs and the economy may work. But Democrats can't afford to alienate minorities, women or urbanites. I don't envy the Democratic leadership and any Democrats like Goodin.
    Some think remaking the Democrats is a joke. That example was what lost all credibility. The Democrats do need to keep focus on the human needs which are historically America, they don't have to change into republicans and become the worst of mankind in terms of watching minorities suffer from racism or bigotry or taking food from hungry children. Democrats only have to stand for social liberalism to be true to who THEY are. One damn loss in one election doesn't mean they need to become racists.

  10. #30
    Chaos in fourteen lines Minotaur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bajisima View Post
    But you have to be honest, in many areas there has been a sort of "war" on blue dogs. I remember several who have been primaried and lost and then the republican went on to win the general. There just are areas where "conservative" democrats do well, look at Joe Manchin. Yet he is being primaried for being "too right wing." lol Its just nutty.
    Some few who have no understanding of how elections work or politics for that matter may think wrongly that Democrats from conservative areas can suddenly call for things that have zero to do with the people they represent but that means nothing. Blue Dogs don't get elected in conservative areas and suddenly become blazing progressives. They would only serve one term and be replaced by republicans. lol

    Ideally all liberals get how important they are because when you need them to get an important liberal bill passed by one vote, they tend to quietly get that bill passed if there is not enough votes. They are very important as seen with the passage of Obamacare.

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