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Thread: The best argument against democracy

  1. #81
    A Character Tennyson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bonehead View Post
    well, since you mentioned that, here are a few thoughts on that matter. Article V states the methods for amending the constitution. there are two legal methods stated - both, in the original context (pre-17th amendment) involve the states. one is through the senate to the states and the other is through the states without interference from the senate or the president. since the 17th amendment, with senators being elected by the citizens instead of appointed by the states, this method has changed - possibly an unforeseen and unintended consequence. in a democracy, this would be quite different.
    Your first description is a joint resolution that requires both houses of Congress. Your second description is a convention of the states. The second method happened late in the convention. September 15, 1787, is a noteworthy date to read the transcript of the convention to understand the Framers' thoughts and reasons for adding the second method.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldGaffer View Post
    The only tyranny I have been seeing is the tyranny of the minority as the GOP has gerrymandered themselves into power.
    Gerrymandering definitely happens, but, from specific personal experience, I can attest that it is a two way street. I supported a Republican as my house representative because I have met him and knew him. A couple of elections ago, in the general election (registered as unaffiliated I can not vote in primaries), I knew he was running for re-election as the Republican candidate. However, when I went to vote, he was not on my ballet. Moreover, I knew that I had not moved. I now have a Democrat representative that I have never met and do not know. However, I do know that he is the son of a long time Democrat party fixture.
    Last edited by TheWahoo; 13th February 2018 at 06:28 AM.

  3. #83
    Veteran Member Goofball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devil505 View Post
    It isn't anymore...it's a combination of Greedocracy and Hypocritical Theocracy.

    Trump is a capitalist in the mold of Al Capone and Jesse James.
    It never was.

    Derp!

  4. #84
    Veteran Member Goofball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldGaffer View Post
    The only tyranny I have been seeing is the tyranny of the minority as the GOP has gerrymandered themselves into power.
    The only way Trump was elected.............gerrymandering.


  5. #85
    Veteran Member bonehead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tennyson View Post
    Your first description is a joint resolution that requires both houses of Congress. Your second description is a convention of the states. The second method happened late in the convention. September 15, 1787, is a noteworthy date to read the transcript of the convention to understand the Framers' thoughts and reasons for adding the second method.
    I am aware of that - and you are correct that it takes two-thirds of both houses to propose an amendment. several states held out as they were wanting assurances that the rights of the citizens would not/could not be removed. final voting was completed in June 1789. that was the last time a convention of the states was used to perform their duties. since that time, all amendments have been proposed by congress and then ratified by the states. but, that does not indicate a constitutional convention of the states cannot be used to amend the constitution.

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    A Character Tennyson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bonehead View Post
    I am aware of that - and you are correct that it takes two-thirds of both houses to propose an amendment. several states held out as they were wanting assurances that the rights of the citizens would not/could not be removed. final voting was completed in June 1789. that was the last time a convention of the states was used to perform their duties. since that time, all amendments have been proposed by congress and then ratified by the states. but, that does not indicate a constitutional convention of the states cannot be used to amend the constitution.
    The joint resolution for the Bill of Rights was generated by the First Congress on September 25, 1789, at Madison's insistence. It was then sent to the individual states for ratification. A convention of the states has never been used since the ratification of the Constitution.

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    Veteran Member bonehead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goofball View Post
    The only way Trump was elected.............gerrymandering.

    actually, it was the electoral college that elected Trump. it was not the popular vote which doesn't count.

  8. #88
    Veteran Member bonehead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tennyson View Post
    The joint resolution for the Bill of Rights was generated by the First Congress on September 25, 1789, at Madison's insistence. It was then sent to the individual states for ratification. A convention of the states has never been used since the ratification of the Constitution.
    correct. but, that method (which is beyond the reach of congress) could be used. do you agree?

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by bonehead View Post
    correct. but, that method (which is beyond the reach of congress) could be used. do you agree?
    Absolutely. There is a relatively strong movement for a convention of the states as we speak.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by bonehead View Post
    correct. but, that method (which is beyond the reach of congress) could be used. do you agree?
    Read this transcript from September 25, 1787. It will give you a little insight for a convention of the states: Avalon Project - Madison Debates - September 15

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