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Thread: IQ tests and race versus OTHER

  1. #51
    Spock of Vulcan Ian Jeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldGaffer View Post
    In 1964 my military exam was the AFQT, Armed forces qualification test. And like you, a high score opened up an array of schools and options.
    The recruiter's response to my ASVAB was "what do you want to do?" I asked what I qualified for, and he repeated the question. I sometimes regret I went into the band.

    Sent from my SM-J327V using Tapatalk

  2. #52
    Southern Strategy Liberal OldGaffer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Jeffrey View Post
    The recruiter's response to my ASVAB was "what do you want to do?" I asked what I qualified for, and he repeated the question. I sometimes regret I went into the band.

    Sent from my SM-J327V using Tapatalk
    They were pushing OCS on me, but at the time I was only interested in getting in my 6 months of active duty and GTFO to civilian life and becoming a weekend warrior...that worked good until 1968 and my guard unit got activated for two years, I wound up spending more active duty time than a draftee.
    Thanks from Ian Jeffrey

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by DebateDrone View Post
    The problem with these IQ-race tests are that there are so many variables as to reder them useless unless someone is pushing some agenda.

    To truly investigate IQ and race one would have to take large samples of women who were recently impregnated....give all of them as close to equal amounts of care and stimulus during pregnancy...as equal a birth and remove the child as soon as possible to begin study.

    Children would have to be either placed in control groups or groupings of race or mixed race groups. The children would have to be given as equal as possible rearing with the exact kind of up bringing for all groups

    then after years of testing researchers could start to gauge intelligence of the different groups.


    Of course this would be highly immoral and not allow. so unless we can experiment on humans like lab rats, we will never know
    BINGO!! Not the least being BASIC socioeconomic conditions. Do the kids have BREAKFAST each morning, some form of a balanced diet? What chemicals are in a kids home or in the surrounding environment? How STIMULATING is the environment? Do the parent(s) read to them or even have money to buy books? And, that is just what shapes the brain--BY THE AGE OF THREE!
    Last edited by cpicturetaker12; 12th February 2018 at 08:11 AM.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Otto Throttle View Post
    An IQ test is not a knowledge test, it's an attempt to test a person's facility at thinking. Consequently, having "been exposed to the same information" and having "been given the same tools to properly memorize and apply the concepts" doesn't enter into it. You must be thinking of achievement tests.
    And certainly intelligence potential is determined by genetics, just as potential height, appearance, longevity, etc., are. Negative environmental, social, emotional, etc., inputs can only lower the outcome from there, but not raise it above a genetically predetermined level.
    Genetics determines an awful lot. Every human being is a unique experiment, a reshuffling of the deck with many variation cards shuffled in each time, and you never know what you're gonna get.
    We now know that environmental factors alter genetic expression by switching genes on or off, so then how do we test what the genetically predetermined level is?

  5. #55
    Veteran Member Eve1's Avatar
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    KnotaFrayed your P#43 is noted. I appreciate your thoughts. You are taking the discussion from a look at the individual child specifically to society in general. Me, I just look at one child at a time and as IQ tests as a bench mark. My thoughts on FSEC are to see if in fact there is a relationship between those factors and marks on the IQ test. My rationale was simple isolating one variable. You can look at a hundred variables but they really have to be examined one a time. One argument in one thread I got this idea from suggested there is a relationship between IQ scores and race which I do not believe. I believe the scores are independent of race and fall on more social factors which is reflected in the FSEC questions.Of course there are more variables like diet, like parental IQ scores, like parental literacy, like pre-school education before the age of 3 and even like the diet and habits and stress level of the mother while she was pregnant with the child, but they all have to be isolated and tested independently. Here in this thread is just the one varialbe, Family and common social and environmental factors (FSEC)=see P#1.
    Last edited by Eve1; 12th February 2018 at 08:40 AM.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by NightSwimmer View Post
    Yeah... That sounds like a line from an action movie, but I do have to wonder just how the "big dogs" might think the concept should be implemented via public policy.
    Invalidate affirmative action quotas for one.

  7. #57
    Human Bean KnotaFrayed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eve1 View Post
    KnotaFrayed your P#43 is noted. I appreciate your thoughts. You are taking the discussion from a look at the individual child specifically to society in general. Me, I just look at one child at a time and as IQ tests as a bench mark. My thoughts on FSEC are to see if in fact there is a relationship between those factors and marks on the IQ test. My rationale was simple as the argument was made in one thread that the relationship between IQ scores and race was related while I believe the scores are independent of race and fall on more social factors which is reflected in the FSEC questions.
    Thanks Eve. As you have noted, there are many more relationships to things than we sometimes like to suggest or categorize. While some people like to see things in an "either/or" polar concept, other see things well beyond that, beginning with all that includes the entire pole, from one extreme (either) to the extreme opposite end (or), then including many different poles, and all they entail, in the mix.

    I think it is perhaps difficult to say there is any one cause for "intelligence" or lack thereof, because there are so many factors involved, from genetics (which evolve, because technology and knowledge evolve) to environmental factors, from nutrition and toxic elements in water, air, soil, food, etc. to family support, lack thereof or a lack of family support, not because of intentional neglect, but because parents may need to be away from their children for most of the day, simply to make enough to feed them.

    To simply pick out one or two factors without considering the huge numbers of others, does not seem intelligent, in of itself. Some factors may play bigger roles than others, but even those factors have factors which control them. The suggestion that race is in of itself a factor, without considering all the other factors affecting any specific race, seems something contrived and something that lacks intelligent thought.

    Intelligence, like so many other things, it would seem, is a factor of a huge number of factors and all those factors also have factors. For example, someone may want to forward the idea that someone of a specific race is less intelligent than others, but they do not want to get into all the other factors that might be cause for the people of that race to exhibit anything that could be construed to show less intelligence. Again, we know that nutrition is a factor in brain development. We know that environmental factors, like lead in the water or what a mother intakes, while pregnant and lots of other things, can affect brain development. Looking at nutrition only, we can see the things that affect nutrition, like poverty and we can see the things that affect poverty as it applies to anyone's race and historical "status" and treatment in any society. We can track vicious cycles of how a lack of nutrition, something toxic in the environment and all the factors that lead to those things, affect the intelligence of a new generation.

    I don't know why, with all the people around me that seem to want to suggest reasons to dislike other people or think of any grouping of people as "dumb", I never ever considered any group of people to be more intelligent overall than anyone else. Perhaps from having the good fortune to know all kinds of people from all kinds of backgrounds and seeing how each shared both super bright people and people that had difficulties with some basic functioning of the mind. There were parents that pushed their children and parents that did not, but still had brilliant children and exceptions would break almost every rule that anyone was trying to construct or conclude. Taken on a case by case study, entering nearly any factor one could come up with about one's life into a file about each child, one might begin to see patterns of what sorts of things affect raw IQ intelligence, but I think the input has to include a lot more information than might be easily available and even with genetic testing, a pre-disposition to something does not mean one is affected by it and having no genetic markers for a pre-disposition to something does not eliminate someone from being affected by something their genetic testing did not show.

    Back to my initial response to your OP. I think we can identify that intelligence or lack thereof, is the result of a huge number of factors, individually and collectively. The more we identify factors, such as nutrition and what sorts of things contribute to nutrition deficiency we can begin to raise raw IQ scores even more and that will likely have a snowball effect in both uncovering and solving the problems of differences in IQ and eliminate some of the speculation we've seen about labeling entire races as less or more intelligent, especially WITHOUT considering all the factors that might lead anyone, to such a conclusion.

    Very best,
    Knot

  8. #58
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    Ms. Eve,

    Interestingly, I made a mistake on both, but got the same score (115 to 130). In the past, I have generally scored 132 to 136 on various IG tests.
    Last edited by Kallie Knoetze; 12th February 2018 at 09:56 AM.

  9. #59
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    While I can't attest to its accuracy, a medical professional told me that two idiots could produce a genius. It was explained by using the cards in a poker hand as an analogy of sorts. Each parent could hold only a pair, relatively speaking not a strong hand. But if the pairs are the same and their offspring receives them, that offspring would have 4 of a kind, which is a strong hand.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eve1 View Post
    How is an IQ test going to do that? My premise is that IQ or intelligence is equal along races,

    I think the likelihood that the child has been exposed to the information needed to do well on intelligence tests can be figured out if they have attended formal schooling accredited to achieve a certain degree=elementary, secondary, post secondary education (FE).The tools needed to get that information to stick in their minds relies more on Family and common social and environmental factors (FSEC).=go back and read post #1 for details.
    I've already said people are individuals, and should be judged as such, and furthermore there is a full spectrum of intelligence and other abilities to be found in any racial group. There is no question about that.

    To say flatly that "intelligence is equal along races", implying equal distribution and identical averages, might make you feel good but empirical evidence contradicts you.

    Is athletic ability also "equal along races"? Why are the NBA and NFL dominated by black athletes? I'm not saying white athletes can't excel, but they certainly don't excel as often. Can you think of "common social and environmental factors" that prevent white athletes from attaining the same levels of talent and skill in football for instance? Or might there be, on average, some inherent differences between races?
    Discuss...
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