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Thread: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?

  1. #21
    Member Gnostic Christian Bishop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slartibartfast View Post
    Problem is, governments need regulated as well against fraud but who can do that? I bet it's rife in every country, money is the root of all evil.
    Do you not trust the judgement of your fellow citizens and yourself to know good from evil?

    It is easy to tell when a society profits or not. Is Inquisitions and Jihads good or evil?

    Your justice and governments have much expertise in judging good from evil.

    Your answer shows you know good from evil. So do your neighbors.

    If not, the intelligential and oligarchs who run the real world from within the masses will soon buy a new reality.

    Regards
    DL

  2. #22
    Member Gnostic Christian Bishop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Jeffrey View Post
    It is not a "double standard." You are comparing apples to motor oil. Where the government may not abridge the free exercise of religion, and may not make any legislation respecting an establishment of religion, it therefore cannot decide what is a legitimate religion and what is not. The whole point is that religion is not the government's business (and vice versa).
    Your constitution is garbage if it allows outright fraud of those in society overly susceptible to the legal indoctrination of young minds into servitude to unworthy Gods, regardless of the brand.

    Start thinking of doing unto others please.

    Yours is a poor law. Scrap it and write a better one.

    Regards
    DL

  3. #23
    Spock of Vulcan Ian Jeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gnostic Christian Bishop View Post
    Your constitution is garbage if it allows outright fraud of those in society overly susceptible to the legal indoctrination of young minds into servitude to unworthy G-ds, regardless of the brand.
    This all requires the government to establish an official religion - or, at best, the criteria for what is acceptable as a "legitimate" religion. The Constitution was expressly designed so that this could not be done, lest the persecutions of past regimes (including but not limited to European ones) be repeated in the U.S.

  4. #24
    Member Gnostic Christian Bishop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Jeffrey View Post
    This all requires the government to establish an official religion - or, at best, the criteria for what is acceptable as a "legitimate" religion. The Constitution was expressly designed so that this could not be done, lest the persecutions of past regimes (including but not limited to European ones) be repeated in the U.S.
    The government already has laws in place that control religions. Just look at the polygamy statutes just recently passed.

    Preventing lying clergy from profiteering from their marks is the duty of the state.

    What do you have against the fraud squads arresting fraudsters?

    Regards
    DL

  5. #25
    Veteran Member Dangermouse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Jeffrey View Post
    This all requires the government to establish an official religion - or, at best, the criteria for what is acceptable as a "legitimate" religion. The Constitution was expressly designed so that this could not be done, lest the persecutions of past regimes (including but not limited to European ones) be repeated in the U.S.
    The government has a role in deciding the fitness of religions for taxation purposes. Scientology, for example has had several problems in Europe on that basis, and those Megachurch organisations look very dubious from this side of the pond.

  6. #26
    Spock of Vulcan Ian Jeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gnostic Christian Bishop View Post
    The government already has laws in place that control religions. Just look at the polygamy statutes just recently passed.
    That is not "controlling religion," and certainly is not establishing an official religion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnostic Christian Bishop View Post
    Preventing lying clergy from profiteering from their marks is the duty of the state.
    Practicing religion in public and soliciting donations does not establish a fraudster-mark relationship. In any case, it is impossible (not to mention illegal, in the U.S.) for the state to determine what religions are genuine and which are frauds, as it would require the state to establish an official religion where even taking a position on religion is impermissible.

  7. #27
    Spock of Vulcan Ian Jeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dangermouse View Post
    The government has a role in deciding the fitness of religions for taxation purposes. Scientology, for example has had several problems in Europe on that basis, and those Megachurch organisations look very dubious from this side of the pond.
    That is true, but it has nothing to do with the OP, since organizations of any kind are not entitled to tax-exempt status. The state can decide to do so as a matter of legislative policy, but that is not the same thing. (And Scientology has its problems in that respect in the U.S. as well.)
    Thanks from Dangermouse

  8. #28
    Member Gnostic Christian Bishop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Jeffrey View Post
    That is not "controlling religion," and certainly is not establishing an official religion.
    Yes it is, as all laws do. The state rules, not religion.
    Practicing religion in public and soliciting donations does not establish a fraudster-mark relationship.
    It does when it is based on demonstrable lies for the money of the victims.

    In any case, it is impossible (not to mention illegal, in the U.S.) for the state to determine what religions are genuine and which are frauds, as it would require the state to establish an official religion where even taking a position on religion is impermissible.
    This is not so.

    Fraud is fact based and fraudulent religions have no facts.

    This is where that abominable word, faith, comes rearing it's ugly head. The logical fallacy shield.

    We are not asking the government to create a new religion. We are asking it to ask the religions to build on truth instead of lies and to put morality before tribal affiliations. We need religions we can respect or they will all die out.

    I come to save, not destroy.

    Regards
    DL

  9. #29
    Junior Member Slartibartfast's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gnostic Christian Bishop View Post
    Do you not trust the judgement of your fellow citizens and yourself to know good from evil?

    It is easy to tell when a society profits or not. Is Inquisitions and Jihads good or evil?

    Your justice and governments have much expertise in judging good from evil.

    Your answer shows you know good from evil. So do your neighbors.

    If not, the intelligential and oligarchs who run the real world from within the masses will soon buy a new reality.

    Regards
    DL
    Do I trust their judgements? No.

  10. #30
    Member Robert Urbanek's Avatar
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    There is some precedent for prosecuting people who engage in “supernatural” practices.

    A person violates New York's ban on fortune telling when:

    [F]or a fee or compensation which he directly or indirectly solicits or receives, he claims or pretends to tell fortunes, or holds himself out as being able, by claimed or pretended use of occult powers, to answer questions or give advice on personal matters or to exorcise, influence or affect evil spirits or curses.

    . . . some states have struck down their fortune telling laws as unconstitutional limits on free speech.


    Source: Is Fortune Telling Illegal? - FindLaw Blotter

    So, is there any real difference between soliciting money to “affect evil spirits” and churches soliciting money to fight Satan?

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