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Thread: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?

  1. #41
    Member Gnostic Christian Bishop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slartibartfast View Post
    Do I trust their judgements? No.
    Then you, if an average citizen, likely do not trust your own judgements if you cannot trust the judgements of your average citizen.

    Regards
    DL

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Urbanek View Post
    There is some precedent for prosecuting people who engage in “supernatural” practices.

    A person violates New York's ban on fortune telling when:

    [F]or a fee or compensation which he directly or indirectly solicits or receives, he claims or pretends to tell fortunes, or holds himself out as being able, by claimed or pretended use of occult powers, to answer questions or give advice on personal matters or to exorcise, influence or affect evil spirits or curses.

    . . . some states have struck down their fortune telling laws as unconstitutional limits on free speech.


    Source: Is Fortune Telling Illegal? - FindLaw Blotter

    So, is there any real difference between soliciting money to “affect evil spirits” and churches soliciting money to fight Satan?
    Not to me.

    I do not give religions a free pass for their ongoing fraud.

    Regards
    DL

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Jeffrey View Post
    No religion has facts. They are all about faith, beliefs, and the like.


    We would be, in effect, since the state would be empowered to determine what is "truth" and "fact" in the context of "religion." Thus, the state would be defining religion, and would only be permitted that which is "state-approved."


    If they die out, that is their problem, not the government's.
    Governments, in fraud cases, would not be defining religions.

    They would just be showing which are the liars and which are not.

    Regards
    DL

  4. #44
    Spock of Vulcan Ian Jeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gnostic Christian Bishop View Post
    Governments, in fraud cases, would not be defining religions.

    They would just be showing which are the liars and which are not.
    Same thing in practice.

    Unless you are referring to something along the lines of U.S. v. Ballard (see post #33)?

  5. #45
    The Un-Holy One The Man's Avatar
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    No, governments should not regulate religions, period.

    It only leads to privileging of CERTAIN religions or values over others.

    In Russia, for example, where the government is under influence of the Orthodox Church

    Social conservatism leads to HIV epidemic
    Seriously???
    it has led to crackdowns on competing alternative Christian denominations, such as the ban on Jehovah's Witnesses, and raids by security forces on their facilities


    Dennis Christensen, a Danish man, a Jehovah's Witness, who has lived in Russia for years and is married to a Russian woman, was arrested in May of last year, during a raid on his congregation, and been held behind bars ever since, without, yet, even a formal conviction

    Oryol Court Extends Pretrial Detention of Dennis Christensen
    Oryol Court to Continue Trial of Dennis Christensen on April 3, 2018

    Scientology has also been banned from the city of Moscow and, increasingly, other regions, and had their offices repeatedly searched and literature confiscated; as has the Krishanite Hindu convert community; and Mormon and Evangelical Baptist missionaries, both Russians and foreigners, are routinely harassed by both authorities and Orthodox nationalist vigilantes. Unapproved Muslim groups are also targeted by the state, considered "extremists" by default, even of they have no history of violence or ties to any terrorist group; simply praying at a not "official" mosque is enough


    In China, authorities also shut down churches unapproved by the Communist state; or, at least, remove their crosses, as in this case, where the blowtorch used to cut down the cross accidentally set it on fire instead


    The Muslim Uighur minority is also tightly monitored and controlled


    In France, you can now see police on beaches forcing Muslim women to take off their hijabs


    Etc.

    And then, we can also get into places like Saudi Arabia or Iran...

    Basically, governments getting involved in religious matters is always a bad idea, always.
    Thanks from Ian Jeffrey

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Jeffrey View Post
    Same thing in practice.

    Unless you are referring to something along the lines of U.S. v. Ballard (see post #33)?
    My statement was quite clear and did not refer to any particular case.

    If a religion in question, finds it is lying to people thanks to secular experts showing them the lies, and it does not redefine itself to a truth speaking religion, the government has the power to jail it's lying clergy or just outlaw it.

    Regards
    DL

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Man View Post
    No, governments should not regulate religions, period.

    It only leads to privileging of CERTAIN religions or values over others.

    In Russia, for example, where the government is under influence of the Orthodox Church
    .
    Are you suggesting that the U.S. government, for example, is not influence by Christian cults?

    I think I see a kettle calling a pot black.

    But back to your statement.

    Westborough Baptists were banned from picketing at the grave or funerals of servicemen.

    Does the privilege it gives to the mourners a bad thing?

    Regards
    DL

  8. #48
    Spock of Vulcan Ian Jeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gnostic Christian Bishop View Post
    If a religion in question, finds it is lying to people thanks to secular experts showing them the lies, and it does not redefine itself to a truth speaking religion, the government has the power to jail it's lying clergy or just outlaw it.
    The government has no business determining which religions are "true" and which are "false." That is the point of United States v. Ballard.

  9. #49
    Spock of Vulcan Ian Jeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gnostic Christian Bishop View Post
    Westborough Baptists were banned from picketing at the grave or funerals of servicemen.
    Those bans were overturned by the Supreme Court in Snyder v. Phelps.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Jeffrey View Post
    The government has no business determining which religions are "true" and which are "false." That is the point of United States v. Ballard.
    Yes, but governments do decide what is fraud and what is not.

    That is all I am asking them to do which is 0neforce the law against those who lie for their victims cash.

    Regards
    DL

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