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Thread: who decides when a person is an "illegal"?

  1. #1
    "Mr. Original". the watchman's Avatar
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    who decides when a person is an "illegal"?

    seen the offensive term "illegals" used a lot. But, it seems to forgot that in American everyone is presume innocent of a crime until a court of law says otherwise. So, the most logical place to begin was in immigration law. What better place to look than the highest court in the land?

    Justice Anthony Kennedy, writing for the majority, joined by Chief Justice John Roberts and three other justices, stated: "As a general rule, it is not a crime for a removable alien to remain present in the United States." The court also ruled that it was not a crime to seek or engage in unauthorized employment.
    As Kennedy explained, removal of an unauthorized migrant is a civil matter where even if the person is out of status, federal officials have wide discretion to determine whether deportation makes sense. For example, if an unauthorized person is trying to support his family by working or has "children born in the United States, long ties to the community, or a record of distinguished military service," officials may let him stay. Also, if individuals or their families might be politically persecuted or harmed upon return to their country of origin, they may also remain in the United States
    https://www.cnn.com/2012/07/05/opini...al-immigrants/

    I could not find the actual word "illegals" anywhere in the law. However, it's found in some online dictionaries.

    Illegals dictionary definition | illegals defined

    https://www.thefreedictionary.com/Illegals

    However, once again, these definitions ignore the the presumption of innocence until proven guilty in a court of law. And, as stated by the highest court in the land, the deportation process is a civil process. Starting to feel a bit like a Zen Riddle?
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    Spock of Vulcan Ian Jeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the watchman View Post
    seen the offensive term "illegals" used a lot. But, it seems to forgot that in American everyone is presume innocent of a crime until a court of law says otherwise. So, the most logical place to begin was in immigration law. What better place to look than the highest court in the land?

    [snip]

    However, once again, these definitions ignore the the presumption of innocence until proven guilty in a court of law. And, as stated by the highest court in the land, the deportation process is a civil process. Starting to feel a bit like a Zen Riddle?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arizona_v._United_States

    Full case: Arizona v. United States, 567 U.S. 387 (2012)

    The "presumption of innocence" is a terminology that applies to the criminal law, not civil or administrative law. If the issue is truly one that is not criminal in nature, then that is not the terminology we would use, and it is not used in the Supreme Court's opinion.

    In any case, we can discuss the concept of "illegal immigration" (or "illegals" as a reasonable shorthand) without referring to specific individuals, at least until the individual in question has been established to have been here illegally (or "undocumented," if you prefer); and a person can be here illegally, and established as such, whether or not deportation is an issue in his or her particular case.
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    Veteran Member John T Ford's Avatar
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    Who ... ???

    Why the illegals themselves makes that decision, of course.

    A person becomes an illegal when they enter America illegally.

    See how that works?

    It's real simple.

    No one decides it for them.

    They become illegals when they decide to commit the crime of entering this Country illegally.

    Silly liberals.
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    "Mr. Original". the watchman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Jeffrey View Post
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arizona_v._United_States

    Full case: Arizona v. United States, 567 U.S. 387 (2012)

    The "presumption of innocence" is a terminology that applies to the criminal law, not civil or administrative law. If the issue is truly one that is not criminal in nature, then that is not the terminology we would use, and it is not used in the Supreme Court's opinion.

    In any case, we can discuss the concept of "illegal immigration" (or "illegals" as a reasonable shorthand) without referring to specific individuals, at least until the individual in question has been established to have been here illegally (or "undocumented," if you prefer); and a person can be here illegally, and established as such, whether or not deportation is an issue in his or her particular case.
    the supreme court trumps your law degree.

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    Spock of Vulcan Ian Jeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the watchman View Post
    the supreme court trumps your law degree.
    Nothing I wrote contradicts the Supreme Court's opinion.

  6. #6
    "Mr. Original". the watchman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Jeffrey View Post
    Nothing I wrote contradicts the Supreme Court's opinion.
    they don't call anyone "illegals" regardless of their status.

  7. #7
    Frankly my dear, I..... Puzzling Evidence's Avatar
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    I don't have anything against illegals, I don't. I know quite a few and they have confided in me that they were here illegally. I don't go around making assumptions about people, I don't call people I know or meet "illegals." I don't call them anything. They are people.

    If I'm discussing illegal alians online, I will possibly refer to them as "illegals."

    Hope this helps.
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    Frankly my dear, I..... Puzzling Evidence's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the watchman View Post
    they don't call anyone "illegals" regardless of their status.
    Even if they are illegals?

  9. #9
    "Mr. Original". the watchman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puzzling Evidence View Post
    Even if they are illegals?
    can you show me where the supreme court has called anyone an "illegal"?

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    Quote Originally Posted by John T Ford View Post
    Who ... ???

    Why the illegals themselves makes that decision, of course.

    A person becomes an illegal when they enter America illegally.

    See how that works?

    It's real simple.

    No one decides it for them.

    They become illegals when they decide to commit the crime of entering this Country illegally.

    Silly liberals.

    This is the answer.

    /thread.
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