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Thread: Separation of church and state

  1. #571
    Veteran Member aboutenough's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael J View Post
    The giveaway is right there in the first sentence: According to Catholic legend, seven of the Apostles are buried at Rome.

    Do you know what a legend is?
    The words passed down from generations to where they are buried. You probably won't find a list on a funeral homes computer from 2000 years ago.

  2. #572
    Veteran Member aboutenough's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael J View Post
    Written questions end with a question mark: Since you won't accept the Bible as evidence why waste my time posting evidence?

    An elementary understanding of argumentation says the Holy Bible is not evidence. A book cannot prove itself. When giving evidence for something, you must have premises that support your conclusion. If you say "The Holy Bible says X is true, X is true because the Holy Bible says it is true," you don't have any premises to prove your conclusion. Instead, you assume your conclusion to be true in the premises.

    Think of it this way: When Chicken Little goes around telling everyone the sky is falling, is the sky actually falling just because Chicken Little says it is falling?



    This is yet another Definist Fallacy where you manipulate meanings of words in order to make your argument look stronger. You have an incorrect definition of evidence. The Holy Bible is not evidence, as I explained to you above, yet you are accusing me of throwing out evidence because you incorrectly believe it is evidence. See the Chicken Little analogy for more information.
    Its not just a book written by one person. Its a book of witnesses (New Testament) telling the story of the life of Jesus. Saying those witnesses are not allowed makes no sense, that's the reason the Bible was put together with those witnesses to testify the truth.

  3. #573
    Spock of Vulcan Ian Jeffrey's Avatar
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    Supernatural occurrences cannot be proven. They can only be believed, or disbelieved.

  4. #574
    Veteran Member Michael J's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aboutenough View Post
    The words passed down from generations to where they are buried. You probably won't find a list on a funeral homes computer from 2000 years ago.
    In other words, people believe they are buried there just because of gossip. This logical fallacy is Appeal to Hearsay.

  5. #575
    Veteran Member aboutenough's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael J View Post
    In other words, people believe they are buried there just because of gossip. This logical fallacy is Appeal to Hearsay.
    No, the word was pass on orally . Could you prove where any person on earth was buried over 2000 years ago? Maybe King Tut, Who else? You going to discount all history because you don't know where someone is buried?

  6. #576
    Veteran Member Michael J's Avatar
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    You make the same Homunculus Fallacies where you repeat the same flawed arguments in an infinite regress. You will continue to talk in an endless loop until your stamina runs out.

    Quote Originally Posted by aboutenough View Post
    Its not just a book written by one person. Its a book of witnesses (New Testament) telling the story of the life of Jesus.
    And it is full of logical contradictions, which I have posted links on numerous times but you just plug your ears and close your eyes.

    You make the same circular arguments: People claiming to have witnessed Christ say Christ was real and was resurrected, Christ was real and was resurrected because people claiming to have witnessed Christ say so. The conclusion is assumed to be true in the premises.

    Answer the question: If Chicken Little and his adherents say the sky is falling, is the sky falling just because Chicken Little and his minions say it is?

    Quote Originally Posted by aboutenough View Post
    Saying those witnesses are not allowed makes no sense
    It makes perfect sense because we can't even identify those witnesses. In a court of law, witnesses must state their name for the record.

    It also makes perfect sense because there is no way to investigate supernatural claims. It doesn't matter how many people claiming to be eyewitnesses there are.

    Quote Originally Posted by aboutenough View Post
    that's the reason the Bible was put together with those witnesses to testify the truth.
    You make the same Fallacies of Assumption where you incorrectly assume that witness testimony is always correct just because it is witness testimony. Anyone can poke holes in witness' claims. I can find a big problem with the people who claim to have seen Christ resurrected: They say they saw Christ fly into Heaven, but the human eye can't see Heaven because it can't see that far.

    I am so bored with these kindergarten-level critical thinking exercises.

  7. #577
    Veteran Member Michael J's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aboutenough View Post
    No, the word was pass on orally .
    Gossip was passed on orally. Are their bodies actually buried there?

    Quote Originally Posted by aboutenough View Post
    Could you prove where any person on earth was buried over 2000 years ago? Maybe King Tut, Who else?
    There are a multitude of peoples' tombs with their buried bodies in them. The Gospels' authors are not among them. Do the research.

    Quote Originally Posted by aboutenough View Post
    You going to discount all history because you don't know where someone is buried?
    Who's talking about all history? We are talking about Christian sources. Stay on topic.
    Thanks from Friday13

  8. #578
    Veteran Member Michael J's Avatar
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    Rational inquiry is supposed to follow a logical order from start to finish. This is the antithesis. It doesn't follow a logical order because it has no order at all. It's just a hodgepodge of Gish Gallops, Arguments by Assertion and Strawman Fallacies.

    Quote Originally Posted by aboutenough View Post
    You said Jesus never existed, so now you sound like you are accepting the possibility he existed because of what scholars claim. You are kind of going back and forth here.
    No, you're Gish Galloping by jumping back and forth between the topics of Jesus Christ as a real person and Jesus Christ's resurrection. The latter depends on the former, but the former doesn't depend on the latter.

    I can't prove Jesus wasn't a real person in the same way I can't prove pink trolls don't exist. But the little historical evidence of his existence makes it unlikely he existed. You're not going to understand what I just wrote, but I will quote this passage the next time you misquote it.

    If you say someone is dead, you have to show the dead body. If you claim someone was shot, you have to show their gunshot wound. If you claim someone lived and died, you have to show their tomb.

    No scholars have any evidence of Christ's tomb, and the Holy Bible is a secondary source that is full of logical contradictions.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gish_gallop

    Quote Originally Posted by aboutenough View Post
    You are only willing to believe something you believe should happen,
    You have any quotes to prove that?

    You have blind faith that a supernatural puppet master exists.

    Quote Originally Posted by aboutenough View Post
    not something supernatural.
    You make the same Definist Fallacies where you manipulate meanings of words in order to make your argument look stronger. No matter how many times you assert the same falsehood, supernatural events can't be investigated. Otherwise, they wouldn't be supernatural. DUH!

    Quote Originally Posted by aboutenough View Post
    Never heard of a scientist thinking that way,
    Then you have never heard of any actual scientists. All scientists know they can't investigate anything supernatural. If they think they can, they are not using Methodological Naturalism like they are supposed to be. You wouldn't know anything about science. You've never studied it or anything like it.

    Your logical fallacy is Anonymous Authority. You're quoting sources that you can't identify. It's like that "some people say" line that the Fox "News" people always deliver. This is why the fallacy is also known as Weasel Words.

    https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Weasel_word

    Quote Originally Posted by aboutenough View Post
    thats discounting evidence based on your conclusive thinking,
    There is no evidence for any supernatural event. That includes, but is not limited to, Christ's resurrection.

    You make the same Fallacies of Assumption where you incorrectly assume they can be investigated.

    Quote Originally Posted by aboutenough View Post
    That's not critical thinking, that biased thinking.

    https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argument_by_assertion


    A guy who makes and uses a multitude of logical fallacies and cognitive biases wouldn't know anything about critical thinking and bias.

    Quote Originally Posted by aboutenough View Post
    That would be like a group researching the cure for Cancer and saying there is no possibility of a cure because they believe it can't happen.
    This logical fallacy is a False Analogy. Cancer has nothing to do with the supernatural. It's a disease that can be investigated because it has observable material qualities. A man rising from the dead and flying is a supernatural event.

    https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/False_analogy

    Quote Originally Posted by aboutenough View Post
    Pre conceived conclusions
    Says the guy who uses the same Self Serving Biases by interpreting the information to mean what he wants it to mean instead of what it actually means. You just really really believe Christ was the son of a supernatural puppet master and was resurrected, so you make Definist Fallacies in order to make it look like your argument actually has a leg to stand on.
    Last edited by Michael J; 16th May 2018 at 07:12 AM.

  9. #579
    Veteran Member aboutenough's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael J View Post
    You make the same Homunculus Fallacies where you repeat the same flawed arguments in an infinite regress. You will continue to talk in an endless loop until your stamina runs out.



    And it is full of logical contradictions, which I have posted links on numerous times but you just plug your ears and close your eyes.

    You make the same circular arguments: People claiming to have witnessed Christ say Christ was real and was resurrected, Christ was real and was resurrected because people claiming to have witnessed Christ say so. The conclusion is assumed to be true in the premises.

    Answer the question: If Chicken Little and his adherents say the sky is falling, is the sky falling just because Chicken Little and his minions say it is?



    It makes perfect sense because we can't even identify those witnesses. In a court of law, witnesses must state their name for the record.

    It also makes perfect sense because there is no way to investigate supernatural claims. It doesn't matter how many people claiming to be eyewitnesses there are.



    You make the same Fallacies of Assumption where you incorrectly assume that witness testimony is always correct just because it is witness testimony. Anyone can poke holes in witness' claims. I can find a big problem with the people who claim to have seen Christ resurrected: They say they saw Christ fly into Heaven, but the human eye can't see Heaven because it can't see that far.

    I am so bored with these kindergarten-level critical thinking exercises.
    Peter, John and Mary the Mother of Jesus were there at the resurrection. Peter and John have written about it in their books. Now tell my why those witnesses are not allowed?

  10. #580
    Veteran Member aboutenough's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael J View Post
    Rational inquiry is supposed to follow a logical order from start to finish. This is the antithesis. It doesn't follow a logical order because it has no order at all. It's just a hodgepodge of Gish Gallops, Arguments by Assertion and Strawman Fallacies.



    No, you're Gish Galloping by jumping back and forth between the topics of Jesus Christ as a real person and Jesus Christ's resurrection. The latter depends on the former, but the former doesn't depend on the latter.

    I can't prove Jesus wasn't a real person in the same way I can't prove pink trolls don't exist. But the little historical evidence of his existence makes it unlikely he existed. You're not going to understand what I just wrote, but I will quote this passage the next time you misquote it.

    If you say someone is dead, you have to show the dead body. If you claim someone was shot, you have to show their gunshot wound. If you claim someone lived and died, you have to show their tomb.

    No scholars have any evidence of Christ's tomb, and the Holy Bible is a secondary source that is full of logical contradictions.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gish_gallop



    You have any quotes to prove that?

    You have blind faith that a supernatural puppet master exists.



    You make the same Definist Fallacies where you manipulate meanings of words in order to make your argument look stronger. No matter how many times you assert the same falsehood, supernatural events can't be investigated. Otherwise, they wouldn't be supernatural. DUH!



    Then you have never heard of any actual scientists. All scientists know they can't investigate anything supernatural. If they think they can, they are not using Methodological Naturalism like they are supposed to be. You wouldn't know anything about science. You've never studied it or anything like it.

    Your logical fallacy is Anonymous Authority. You're quoting sources that you can't identify. It's like that "some people say" line that the Fox "News" people always deliver. This is why the fallacy is also known as Weasel Words.

    https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Weasel_word



    There is no evidence for any supernatural event. That includes, but is not limited to, Christ's resurrection.

    You make the same Fallacies of Assumption where you incorrectly assume they can be investigated.



    https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argument_by_assertion


    A guy who makes and uses a multitude of logical fallacies and cognitive biases wouldn't know anything about critical thinking and bias.



    This logical fallacy is a False Analogy. Cancer has nothing to do with the supernatural. It's a disease that can be investigated because it has observable material qualities. A man rising from the dead and flying is a supernatural event.

    https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/False_analogy



    Says the guy who uses the same Self Serving Biases by interpreting the information to mean what he wants it to mean instead of what it actually means. You just really really believe Christ was the son of a supernatural puppet master and was resurrected, so you make Definist Fallacies in order to make it look like your argument actually has a leg to stand on.
    Everything you say is biased thinking. You discount witnesses because you disagree with them, that's biased thinking. There is more evidence of Jesus life and his resurrection then there is concerning the first landing on the moon. At least there was eye witnesses that saw Jesus, the Moon landing just had a tv camera with no actual eye witnesses. With your thinking no one existed unless you know where there grave is. Where is Hitler buried, can't find him, He doesn't exist. How about Amelia Earhart, nope, can't find her grave, she never existed. You realize how dumb that sounds
    Last edited by aboutenough; 16th May 2018 at 01:16 PM.

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