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Thread: Separation of church and state

  1. #61
    Radical Centrist BigLeRoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy View Post
    Yes. If they are actively trying to convert your child then they should be fired.
    Well, if a teacher is leading a prayer in class, just offhand, I'd say they're trying to convert your child. Sheesh.
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  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Jeffrey View Post
    The First Amendment prohibits an Establishment of Religion, not an Establishment of Hairstyles.
    Not exactly. The first amendment prohibits any law from being made that respects an establishment of religion.

    And you may not be aware of this - but many religious cults actually do maintain certain hairstyles and dress codes for their members. So even in a religious context - it's really not that far fetched.

    The bottom line is people expressing themselves is not the same as making a law that respects an establishment of religion. And it's ridiculous for our courts to suggest that it does.

  3. #63
    DEEP STATE CEO Blues63's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigLeRoy View Post
    Well, if a teacher is leading a prayer in class, just offhand, I'd say they're trying to convert your child. Sheesh.
    I wonder what would happen if the student said, 'Piss off with your dumb mediaeval crap.' LOL
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  4. #64
    Spock of Vulcan Ian Jeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigLeRoy View Post
    Can you imagine if everyone in the nation had to go around with a Kim Jong Un hairstyle?

    Gah!!!
    I think the emoticon you were looking for is:

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldGaffer View Post
    There is a difference between a well known family member versus a teacher in school that you do not know from Adam. A public school is the “state”, and as such cannot promote a religion, and no matter how you try to disguise it, teachers do not have the right to promote any religion
    Not really.

    The same concept would apply if it was a teacher saying a blessing next to me in the lunchroom....

  6. #66
    Member Claudius the God's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy View Post
    I am comparing them in the sense that anything can be forced into private if you claim that possibly influencing others is a justifiable excuse to deny someone their rights.

    The fact you can't see that underscores why you haven't thought about this question enough.
    I recall that for the first 50 years or so, we had states actually practicing, promoting and supporting their state religion legally. In some cases, everyone was paying a mandatory tithe to the state church. As the states grew and became more diverse, these laws and practices fell away for a more egalitarian and secular view of church and state. We simply out grew it and moved on which benefited us tremendously.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigLeRoy View Post
    Ian had the best response to this silliness and nonsense of yours in his post #50, and I wish to God that I had written it, because it is succinct, funny, and dead-on correct:

    The First Amendment prohibits an Establishment of Religion, not an Establishment of Hairstyles.
    As I pointed out - many religious cults actually demand that their members wear certain hairstyles and dress codes.

    So yes - certain hairstyles and dress codes certainly can have a religious context. Are you going to ban those as well because they may influence your kid?

    That was the point.

    The actual silliness here is to suggest someone praying in public violates the first amendment. But I can understand why you would want to focus on hairstyles... if I was making such an absurd argument I would want to focus on that also.
    Last edited by Jeremy; 23rd April 2018 at 03:16 PM.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigLeRoy View Post
    Well, if a teacher is leading a prayer in class, just offhand, I'd say they're trying to convert your child. Sheesh.

    If a teacher were to say a blessing over their food during lunch would he or she would be trying to convert the entire lunchroom to their religion?

    And I don't support a teacher leading their class in prayer. That's not what I am talking about here.

    I am talking about allowing individuals to individually practice their religion in public.
    Last edited by Jeremy; 23rd April 2018 at 03:17 PM.

  9. #69
    Radical Centrist BigLeRoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blues63 View Post
    I wonder what would happen if the student said, 'Piss off with your dumb mediaeval crap.' LOL
    Then the theocratic code would allow for VERY vigorous spankings.

    Pants-DOWN spankings, I might add!
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  10. #70
    Spock of Vulcan Ian Jeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy View Post
    Yes it is.
    No, it is not, as a matter of judicial history. Read some case law.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy View Post
    It's an invention of the courts - as that phrase appears no where in the first amendment nor is it an accurate description of what the first amendment even says.
    Your statement is not relevant; is not how the law works; and is exactly an accurate description of the Establishment Clause.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy View Post
    This idea that people involved in Government or public service may only practice their religion in private is ridiculous and is basically the exact opposite of what the first amendment actually asserts.
    Nobody is saying government employees may "only practice their religion in private," and it is intellectually dishonest to say anyone is. What I (for myself, at least) am saying is that one may not use one's government position for the purpose of proselytizing. It has nothing to do with "public versus private." This discussion would not be occurring if not for the fact that a certain sect of the population wishes to use the government, and public schools in particular, as religious schools tasked with training students in a particular religion.
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