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Thread: I agree with Trump on Israel

  1. #161
    Veteran Member Isalexi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devil505 View Post
    It's the only real democracy in the ME and we gain nothing by playing nice with the Arabs.
    Station American troops in Israel, have combined military operations and stop pretending we are neutral brokers.

    Then again, I agreed with Hitler on his love of dogs.
    So are you saying that if we didnít stir up this problem things would be worse? What did trump get out of it? When you do something for a country usually there are some concessions. It wouldíve been an opportunity to talk with the Palestinians rather than antagonize and isolate us even more from the world
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  2. #162
    Flibbertigibbet Wonderer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonderer View Post
    Yep. Republican voters are all nasty and vile. Good thing you're better than that! (And that your vote for him was for noble, strategic purposes.)
    I need to revisit this. @NightSwimmer - I'm sorry. I apologize for taking this jab at you. I have to acknowledge that I'm holding a grudge. The ascendancy of Trump was extraordinarily frustrating for me, particularly as someone who leans right and often votes Republican -- and who hates seeing the partisan divide grow sharper and deeper. It leaves me feeling like someone who's standing astride both "sides" and watching the ground beneath me split apart, trying to keep my feet firmly planted together and will the ever widening gap to stop.

    I fought him in large part because I felt that -- more often than not -- he appeals to our worst devils, rather than better angels. And I've watched that snowball -- on both/all sides and felt maddeningly helpless, though I keep trying to fight against it -- reminding people that life and people are far more than just their politics. It feels like such a losing battle these days.

    I resent the fact that you voted for him in the primary -- that you wanted him on the ballot in the general. I resent the fact that, even though I voted AGAINST him in the primary -- specifically for Cruz (when I actually backed Rubio) in an effort to head him off at the pass here in Missouri -- you turned around and likened me to Pontius Pilate because I declared I'd not be voting for him OR Hillary in the general. (Even though it was clear he was going to win Missouri by a fairly decent margin -- and ultimately did by 19 points.) I've felt the prick of your jabs. They have rankled me and infuriated me. And I've jabbed back.

    It needs to stop. I'm sorry for not being bigger than that. I'm sorry for holding onto a grudge. You're entitled to your views and to express them as you see fit. It's not my job to police you or correct you. If there's something on which I disagree, I can -- and should -- simply express my disagreement without being disagreeable. And if I'm unable to do that, then just to keep my mouth (and keyboard) shut.

    Again, I am sorry.
    Last edited by Wonderer; 17th May 2018 at 07:47 AM.

  3. #163
    Veteran Member Isalexi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkady View Post
    The Palestinians who want to return to their lands in Israel should be allowed to do so and should be allowed to vote in Israeli elections. Being able to vote for some other government in a ghetto to which Israel has confined them (or having no vote at all, if they're in a refugee camp elsewhere) is no substitute for being able to vote in their homeland.



    It's one city broken into two pieces, thanks to Israel's illegal occupation. If the US was going to recognize the Israeli capital, it ought to have recognized it as being West Jerusalem, while simultaneously recognizing East Jerusalem as the capital of Palestine.



    Do you think something I said implied that?
    What I find so amazing is the outrage always at Israel. Look at the size of Israel, it is a dot on the map and yet all those huge countries around it kick out oalestians. Why do you suppose the Palestinians living in Gaza and the West Bank havenít developed their land? Why arenít those leaders trying to do that
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  4. #164
    Veteran Member Isalexi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devil505 View Post
    Palestinians only want to kill.
    As golds Meir said...., when the Palestinians love their children more than they hate Israel there will be peace
    Thanks from Wonderer, Ian Jeffrey and Devil505

  5. #165
    Veteran Member Isalexi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Jeffrey View Post
    And how many of those people are alive now? And should we then confiscate the property from those who have it now?


    They are not confined to any ghetto.

    Besides, what you are talking about here is the eradication of Israel, and that is not an option.


    No, it is actually a single city, and there is no "illegal occupation."


    Yes. When you blame someone for "invit[ing] a violent response," you are taking responsibility away from the violent people and giving it to the non-violent ones.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheWahoo View Post
    I'm just a simple country boy, so my position on Israel is quite simple. Israel has been and continues to be our best, if not our only ally in the middle east, so we have an obligation to have their backs and do what is perceived best for them. Israel has the right to exist and we must be there to assure their continued existence.
    I agree but why did we have to do something so controversial now? I think it was foolish and played right I to the hands of our enemies and brought out even more anti semitism..obama did more to help Israel than any other president
    Last edited by Isalexi; 17th May 2018 at 07:54 AM.

  6. #166
    Spock of Vulcan Ian Jeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isalexi View Post
    I agree but why did we have to do something so controversial now? I think it was foolish and played right I to the hands of our enemies and brought out even more anti semitism..
    Maybe. On the other hand, we would almost certainly have gotten the same response had we done so any other time. The problem was not the timing so much as a failure to lay the necessary groundwork. It was done as a grandstanding stunt rather than through any diplomatic process, and thus instead of relaxed tension and general peace, we have a(nother) mess.
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  7. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isalexi View Post
    What I find so amazing is the outrage always at Israel. Look at the size of Israel, it is a dot on the map and yet all those huge countries around it kick out oalestians. Why do you suppose the Palestinians living in Gaza and the West Bank haven’t developed their land? Why aren’t those leaders trying to do that
    I remember when the south was still segregated under jim crow laws, whites asked the same thing about blacks in their own communities.

    To an economist, working on the West Bank and Gaza can be exceptionally frustrating. No matter how good the analysis, “politics” blocks the policy implications of that analysis. Meanwhile, the economy of Gaza continues to deteriorate (Figure 1). The unemployment rate, at over 40 percent, is one of the highest in the world. The lack of electricity, water, and sanitation risks a humanitarian crisis in a few years. The West Bank, while growing slowly, is full of unrealized potential. For instance, lifting the restrictions on access and movement to Area C, as stipulated in the 1995 Israeli-Palestinian Agreement, would increase Palestinian GDP by 23 percent.

    snip

    The other major area for Gaza is the restrictions on trade and movement of people. Relaxing these will have a major impact on the Gazan economy. Recognizing that implementing these measures will take time, the report points to one particular policy, the Dual-Use list, which could be addressed immediately. This policy restricts imports of goods such as construction materials into Gaza to prevent security threats, like the building of tunnels or rockets. However, the United Nations has developed techniques for tracking these materials up to the plant level, so that the Dual List could be reduced sharply.

    https://www.brookings.edu/blog/futur...jordan-valley/

  8. #168
    Veteran Member Southern Dad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by boontito View Post
    Yeah, the anti-Semite who thought there were fine people chanting "the Jews will not replace us" in Charlottesville is a true friend of Israel.

    Your blind faith in your cult leader, does it force you to be naive, ignorant or dishonest when defending him?
    President Obama promised to move the embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem. As did Presidents George W Bush, and Bill Clinton. The difference? President Donald J Trump has followed through with his promise. He has moved the embassy. Our ambassador is now in Jerusalem rather than an hour away in Tel Aviv.

  9. #169
    the "good" prag pragmatic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Jeffrey View Post
    It matters.


    So basically, Israel hangs on another couple generations, and you would be fine. Merely having known someone in a previous generation is sufficient? That makes no sense.


    Um, no. The land Israel won in 1967 belonged to Jordan and Egypt - both of whom have surrendered their claims as part of a peace treaty. Syria has not made a treaty, but has shown no interest in returning the Golan Heights.


    Interesting. How far back in history do you think is appropriate for confiscating property you believe was illegally taken?


    There are no "semantics," a common rejoinder when caught out using inappropriate and loaded language. Gaza and the West Bank are not ghettos, and calling them that will not make it so. Those areas are impoverished because the monies and other materials they receive (Gaza in particular) are used to facilitate attacking Israel instead of building up the country. The blockade is to prevent such weapons from getting in; food, medical supplies, and the like are let through, and always have been. The flotilla sent from Turkey several years back was carrying weapons. The so-called "quarantine" is to prevent incursions into Israel proper that would be made to attack and kill Jewish civilians - a terrorist strategy you seem to support.


    It would not remain a Jewish state. Jews would no longer have a homeland, and would ultimately be pushed out of the region entirely - which is exactly what the Palestinians want: a land free from any Jewish presence.


    Not if there is to be any peace. Eradication of Israel - which you clearly support and advocate - is not on the table.


    It is not semantics, but a reality. It was originally a single city, and calling it a divided one just because Arabs live in part of it does not make it so.


    And yet that is how it works out.


    No. Criminal is criminal. You just finished saying that "wrong is wrong." That also means one has a right to expect that crimes will not be committed. You are trying to have it both ways. It is sounding like this only applies when you disapprove of the action involved; but if you approve of the actors and their motivations, then the actions are rendered acceptable.

    Thank you for that response/post.
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  10. #170
    Veteran Member Southern Dad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkady View Post
    I'm not sure. However, I'd also extend the rights to those of their descendants who actually knew them. I'm not a fan of trying to right ancient wrongs -- if we were talking about the third or fourth generation following an historical injustice, as with American slavery, better to just let it go. But this is more like the return of Jewish valuables stolen by the Nazis in WWII (e.g., the famous portrait of Adele Block Bauer by Klimt). Israel stole many of those lands in in the late 1940s, making their war crime fresher than those of the Nazis, and in some cases, the looting dates even more recently, to 1967. Someone would only need to be 51 years old to have lived in the pre-theft Palestinian lands the Israelis took in the Six Day War. So, I expect there are many who fled during those wars who are still alive and would come back if Israel were not denying them that human right.



    Absolutely. I would also advocate doing so without any compensation, since they all understood they were taking land that didn't belong to them. This isn't a matter of someone buying land in due course, with a reasonable assumption of good title, a century or more after it was unjustly taken (similar to, say, someone in the Americas buying land that was wrongly taken from native people in the 19th or 18th century. It's common knowledge which areas Israel is criminally occupying today, and people who buy such lands or invest in them are knowingly trying to profit on that crime. I don't see the need to make them whole for that. That's especially true for anyone who received the land from the state as part of a settlement process. They knew what they were doing, and losing that land without compensation is just punishment for their part in that crime.



    They're stuck in an abjectly impoverished area subject to what is effectively a militarily-enforced quarantine, including Israel's land, air, and sea blockade of Gaza. If it makes you uncomfortable to refer to that as a ghetto, that's fine. Semantics aren't a big area of interest for me. But the underlying point is the same. They're suffering as a result of those willful human rights violations by Israel.



    Wrong, and wrong.

    First, I'm not talking about the eradication of Israel. I'm talking about Israel's character changing by way of ending its policy of excluding Palestinians from their homes. National characters change over time, without that meaning they've been eradicated. Israel would become a more ethnically and religious pluralistic nation, but it would remain a nation.

    Second, of course eradication of Israel is an option. Eradication of any nation is an option. Nations are a legal fiction, and they have no independent right to exist. They come and go over time. Did Czechoslovakia have a right to exist? Did the Austro-Hungarian Empire? The Republic of Texas? Yugoslavia? East Germany? I don't think any of them had a right to exist. They were just political structures that could persist or be dissolved as the people living there saw fit. Israel is no different. If most of the people with the moral right to live within the borders of what we call Israel want to perpetuate the existence of that legal fiction, that's their right. If they want to dissolve it into new political units, or merge it into a larger one, or reform it under some new name, that's their right, too. People, have rights, not countries. When we speak of the rights of a nation we're really just using a convenient short-hand for the collective rights of the people. And if those people collectively wanted to eradicate Israel, then that would be a perfectly legitimate option.



    You're welcome to call it as single city if you'd like. Again, semantics aren't a big interest for me. I'm more interested in the underlying facts. And the underlying fact is that Israel illegally occupies East Jerusalem. As a simple matter of international law, that occupation is illegal:

    BBC NEWS




    That's not my intent. I mean it in the same sense that if I were to paint a huge swastika on my car and park it in a Jewish neighborhood, I would be inviting vandalism. That wouldn't mean the vandals were justified for their crime, if they trashed my car. It just means that I'd be doing something provocative which I should expect to result in a criminal response. Those who respond criminally are wholly responsible for their crime, but at the same time, I'd have to be an idiot not to expect something nasty to happen to my car if I did that. In the same way, if anyone imagined that the US moving the embassy wouldn't result in violence, he was an idiot.
    Should the ancestors of the Native Americans get their land back, too?

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