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Thread: What should be next for unions if Janus prevails vs. AFSCME?

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptif219 View Post
    When I was in Wisconsin you were forced to join the union and pay dues. That is it. This needs to stop
    Unions will obfuscate this and say "no one has to join." What they mean is no one is forced to become a full member, which involves paying the voluntary PAC dues. When you were in Wisconsin (pre-2010-2011, apparently), Wisconsin allowed union security clauses, which said you had to become a "member in good standing" (but not full member) within so many days of employment and pay financial core dues (but not PAC dues, which are the portion spent directly on campaigns).

    Full member means you pay voluntary PAC dues and financial core dues (the latter of which are mandatory in non-RTW states). "Non-member" sometimes refers to union-represented positions in which the worker opts out of the PAC dues but (in non-RTW states) must still pay agency fees (financial core dues). Confusingly, "non-member" might also be said to refer to positions that are not in a bargaining unit, which thus pay no dues of any kind and receive nothing from the union.

    I realize you may not care about those technicalities, but a lot of people, both on the pro-union and anti-union side, suffer from a lot of misinformation around these specifics. Unions will say "no one has ever been forced to become a union member," which is intentionally disingenuous and not really correct, and anti-union people say "you're forced to become a union member and pay dues" which is also arguably incorrect and sometimes disingenuous. Unions and their supporters will also split hairs over calling only the PAC contributions "dues," while calling the financial core dues "agency fees" or "fair share fees." The ambiguity used to describe all this is intentional, meant to confuse and bore people.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by BitterPill View Post
    It is ironic you mention 'standard dishonest propaganda.'
    Quote Originally Posted by BitterPill View Post
    Perhaps this thread is about 'standard dishonest propaganda.'

    That's what I think, and I'm sticking to it.
    So you didn't read post #1, or notice that it's to "In These Times" which is known to be extremely liberal, and contains a dialogue of clear union supporters discussing what unions should do next.

    You're not going to read it, you're just going to close your eyes and insist I'm spouting propaganda. Yeah, good plan.

  3. #53
    Veteran Member ptif219's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    Unions will obfuscate this and say "no one has to join." What they mean is no one is forced to become a full member, which involves paying the voluntary PAC dues. When you were in Wisconsin (pre-2010-2011, apparently), Wisconsin allowed union security clauses, which said you had to become a "member in good standing" (but not full member) within so many days of employment and pay financial core dues (but not PAC dues, which are the portion spent directly on campaigns).

    Full member means you pay voluntary PAC dues and financial core dues (the latter of which are mandatory in non-RTW states). "Non-member" sometimes refers to union-represented positions in which the worker opts out of the PAC dues but (in non-RTW states) must still pay agency fees (financial core dues). Confusingly, "non-member" might also be said to refer to positions that are not in a bargaining unit, which thus pay no dues of any kind and receive nothing from the union.

    I realize you may not care about those technicalities, but a lot of people, both on the pro-union and anti-union side, suffer from a lot of misinformation around these specifics. Unions will say "no one has ever been forced to become a union member," which is intentionally disingenuous and not really correct, and anti-union people say "you're forced to become a union member and pay dues" which is also arguably incorrect and sometimes disingenuous. Unions and their supporters will also split hairs over calling only the PAC contributions "dues," while calling the financial core dues "agency fees" or "fair share fees." The ambiguity used to describe all this is intentional, meant to confuse and bore people.
    That was not the case in Wisconsin when I lived there. If it was a union shop you paid union dues

  4. #54
    Ignorance Is Virtue BitterPill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptif219 View Post
    If I am in a union my dues go to the democrats
    No they fucking don't.

    You are lying... again.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptif219 View Post
    That was not the case in Wisconsin when I lived there. If it was a union shop you paid union dues
    You're not reading the words that are written on the screen.

    There are two distinct kinds of dues:

    1) Financial core dues. These are also referred to as "agency fees." These are what you had to pay in Wisconsin, because of the union security clause in the union contract. People who pay these dues are referred to as "members in good standing" pursuant to the union security clause in the collective bargaining agreement, but these are not "full members." To be a full member, you must also pay....

    2) Political Action Committee (PAC) dues. These have been completely voluntary in all states since the 1970s. This is the money that is spent directly on campaigns and political activism. If anyone ever convinced you that you had to pay these dues, they lied to you and you were duped.

  6. #56
    Veteran Member ptif219's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BitterPill View Post
    No they fucking don't.

    You are lying... again.
    Yes they do.

  7. #57
    Veteran Member ptif219's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    You're not reading the words that are written on the screen.

    There are two distinct kinds of dues:

    1) Financial core dues. These are also referred to as "agency fees." These are what you had to pay in Wisconsin, because of the union security clause in the union contract. People who pay these dues are referred to as "members in good standing" pursuant to the union security clause in the collective bargaining agreement, but these are not "full members." To be a full member, you must also pay....

    2) Political Action Committee (PAC) dues. These have been completely voluntary in all states since the 1970s. This is the money that is spent directly on campaigns and political activism. If anyone ever convinced you that you had to pay these dues, they lied to you and you were duped.
    If you think so. I am telling you no one said nothing about 2 kinds they just took money out of my check every month and I had no control to stop it other than quit

  8. #58
    Ignorance Is Virtue BitterPill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptif219 View Post
    Yes they do.
    You are lying again. Seems you lie a lot.

    Did Trump inspire your affinity for prevarication, or were you just that way from the get-go?
    Last edited by BitterPill; 4th June 2018 at 05:16 PM.

  9. #59
    Veteran Member ptif219's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BitterPill View Post
    You are lying again. Seems you lie a lot.

    Did Trump inspire your affinity for prevarication, or were you just that way from the get-go?
    You show your ignorance

    https://www.nationalreview.com/2015/...ues-liberally/

  10. #60
    Ignorance Is Virtue BitterPill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptif219 View Post
    I don't open links proffered by alt-right wingers, but I do know this:

    UNDERSTAND HOW UNIONS SPEND MEMBER MONEY IN POLITICS

    The landmark U.S. Supreme Court case Communications Workers of America v. Beck (1988) lets union members get a refund for the part of their dues that are used for political activity. Learn more about your Beck rights.

    https://www.unionfacts.com/article/political-money/

    so if union members can get a refund for the part of their dues spent on political activity, that means their dues not spent on political activity are not refunded.

    It also means you are a liar.
    Thanks from Hollywood

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