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Thread: A Tale of Two Investigations

  1. #11
    Bad Policy Good Politics DebateDrone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkady View Post
    True, I suppose. You'd think there would have been some principled conservatives, though, who'd have spoken up against that disgusting process. But I guess there just aren't principled conservatives any more. There are unprincipled conservatives who submit totally to Trump, and there are unprincipled conservatives who occasionally stand up to Trump, but with regard to the misbehavior of more mainline Republicans, like those behind the Clinton witch-hunts, you'd be hard pressed to find any conservatives with strong enough principles to object.
    Principled Conservative is an oxymoron.

    Any person can be principled. To fain 'conservatism' is a special con.

    Even those so-called conservatives who speak against Trump still hold views that are deplorable. Even popular and liked conservatives like McCain and Flake...if given carte blance would run programs contrary to the wishes of a majority of the American people.

    McCain and Flake are still Republicans.
    Thanks from Arkady

  2. #12
    Veteran Member Yetisports6 - Big Wave Champion, Bezerk Champion, All Ball Champion, Magic Gem Champion, Crystal Clear Champion, Flower Power Champion, Space Thieves TD Champion, X-treme Moto Idiot Cross Champion, Micro Tanks Champion, Race Horse Tycoon Champion, Railway Line Champion, Raju Meter 2 Champion, Metal Slug - Kill the Nazis Champion, Decoder Champion, 1 in 24 Speed v32  Champion
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkady View Post
    (2) Cause for suspicion.

    In the case of Russiagate, by comparison, all our nation's intelligence services have agreed that Russia interfered with the election, and most agreed they did so with the goal of getting Trump elected. Moreover, there has already been enough evidence of that interference to support a long list of indictments of the alleged Russian conspirators. The extent of involvement of top members of the Trump campaign is still an open question, but there have been multiple guilty pleas, indictments, and firings there, as well. Plus, Trump has been acting the way you'd expect a guilty person to act, by attempting to obstruct the investigation at every step, and top members of his team have lied repeatedly about Russian ties in sworn testimony or signed legal documents.[/INDENT]
    There is a lot of missing information here and that account is incredibly skewed. None of Trump's team has been nailed for Russian Collusion.

    It is now known that the FBI / DoJ had spies in the Trump campaign prior to the Papadopoulos event. Stefan Halper was inserted prior to the Papadopoulos event, which in and of itself is very sketchy for the FBI / DoJ.

    Why didn't they notify the Trump campaign of their issues with Carter Page or Manafort? Nope. They put in a spy and started tapping phones and unmasking Trump campaign staff.

    With the Clinton investigation it was all above the boards. No spies, no wire tapping, no early morning raids, no attacks on staff that they thought were not lying after they bankrupt them with legal attacks.

    The two are very different.

  3. #13
    Veteran Member bmanmcfly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkady View Post
    Every time I hear a conservative label the Mueller investigation a "witch hunt," my mind goes immediately to the Ken Starr investigation, and how almost no conservatives spoke up against what was a very obvious partisan witch hunt.

    Here's a quick comparison, to give you a sense for how very different the two investigations are.

    (1) Background.

    The questions underlying the Whitewater investigation were low-stakes. It involved a small (around $200k) real estate deal that the Clintons had gone in on with some friends back in the late 1970s.... and the speculation that maybe Bill Clinton might have used his office to try to cut his losses when a shift in interest rates made the investment a money-loser.

    By comparison, the questions underlying the Mueller investigation are very high-stakes. It involves efforts by a hostile superpower to subvert a US presidential election, and the web of ties between that superpower and a list of high-ranking people within one of the political campaigns.

    (2) Cause for suspicion.

    In the case of Whitewater, there was no particular reason to be suspicious of the Clintons, other than the fact that it was a small state in the 1970s and it didn't seem inherently implausible that a powerful state official might abuse his office to protect himself from investment losses. But by the time of Clinton's presidency, there'd already been an investigation by the Resolution Trust Corporation that had found no sign of any wrongdoing by the Clintons.

    In the case of Russiagate, by comparison, all our nation's intelligence services have agreed that Russia interfered with the election, and most agreed they did so with the goal of getting Trump elected. Moreover, there has already been enough evidence of that interference to support a long list of indictments of the alleged Russian conspirators. The extent of involvement of top members of the Trump campaign is still an open question, but there have been multiple guilty pleas, indictments, and firings there, as well. Plus, Trump has been acting the way you'd expect a guilty person to act, by attempting to obstruct the investigation at every step, and top members of his team have lied repeatedly about Russian ties in sworn testimony or signed legal documents.

    (3) Reason each investigator was appointed.

    Robert Fiske, a broadly respected Republican former US attorney, had been appointed to investigate Whitewater by Janet Reno, with the idea that his party affiliation and background would give the results of his investigation credibility with Republicans that wouldn't be the case if the investigation had been done in-house by a Democrat like Reno. Fiske investigated for six months and concluded that Clinton had done nothing wrong with regard to Whitewater. For the Republicans, this was an unacceptable fact, and so they replaced Fiske with an independent counsel, Ken Starr, who could be counted on to use the office as a partisan tool for the GOP, to damage Clinton by any means necessary.

    In the case of the Russia investigation, things started out as an investigation led by a Republican head of the FBI, Comey, working under a Republican AG, Sessions. However, Sessions was personally implicated by his lies under oath to Congress about his own communications with Russian agents, and had to recuse himself, and then Comey was fired by Trump for "this Russia thing" after he'd refused to back off Trump's crony, Flynn, at Trump's request. So, another Republican, Mueller, was put in charge of looking into the matter, reporting up to yet another Republican, Rosenstein.

    (4) Partisan nature.

    As indicated above, the investigation of Whitewater was effectively a partisan investigation from the start -- both Fiske and Starr were Republicans, and starting in 1995, the Congressional bodies with oversight authority were also in the hands of Republicans. Moreover, the federal judiciary was dominated by Republicans (7-to-2 on the Supreme Court, for example).

    The Russia investigation, by comparison, is essentially an in-house investigation of the matter by the president's own party. The former and current FBI heads are Republicans, the AG and Deputy AG are Republicans, the special counsel is a Republican, the Congressional bodies with oversight authority are controlled by the Republicans, and the federal judiciary still tilts to the Republicans. There's a reasonable concern that partisan factors might result in crimes by the administration being covered up by his party-mates heading up the investigation, but no reasonable concern that there will be a partisan drive to take the administration down.

    (5) Scope.

    The Starr investigation was infamous for its range. Early in the process it was clear that --as had already been shown by independent investigators by the Resolution Trust Corporation, and by Fiske -- Starr wasn't going to find any dirt on the Clintons regarding the supposed topic of his investigation. But, the GOP had effectively fired Fiske for telling them that, so Starr knew "no" wasn't an acceptable answer. As such, he went on a fishing expedition. He trawled through every aspect of the lives of the Clintons, spanning decades, in hopes of finding some criminal conduct -- or at least something personally embarrassing enough to make the political investment worthwhile. His team spent millions of dollars looking into matters as diverse as the First Lady's old law career, staffing decisions at the White House's Travel Office, and commodity trades. But despite many years of work and a cost of around $80 million, Starr could find nothing at all, and so he had to settle for issuing a report that essentially was a piece of smut discussing the president's consensual sex life.

    The Mueller investigation, thus far, has a laser focus. He is only looking into involvement of Russians in the 2016 election, and ties between the Russians and top members of the Trump campaign. When he encounters evidence of law breaking that doesn't fit that description, he doesn't attempt to expand the scope of his work, but instead just refers the matter to other law enforcement personnel, and leaves to their discretion the decision of whether or not to follow up on it (e.g., the Cohen/Clifford matters).

    One of those two things deserves the title of "Witch Hunt." It's definitely not the Mueller investigation.
    One factor that needs to be considered with Ken Starr, how many people were actually guilty on the Republican side as well?

    Yes, from that perspective does look like a witch hunt to get Clinton. The thing is that if people knew the truth about what was going on pretty much everyone would have been gone. So, to appease the people that wanted investigation they started that, and star had to just find a crime that would only implicate Clinton. You can't commit a serious high-level crime without having some form of government help.

    The reason this analogy doesn't work with Trump is that, crimes were committed to try and keep Trump out of the White House. Then those crimes were used as evidence that Trump committed those crimes, which was what sparked the initial investigation in the first place.

    That's why with Trump the purpose was not impeachment, but rather overthrow.

    In other words not an apples-to-apples comparison.

  4. #14
    Thought Provocateur NightSwimmer's Avatar
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    The GOP obviously has it's lackeys well trained, so they face no political blow-back for their hypocrisy and malfeasance.

  5. #15
    Veteran Member Yetisports6 - Big Wave Champion, Bezerk Champion, All Ball Champion, Magic Gem Champion, Crystal Clear Champion, Flower Power Champion, Space Thieves TD Champion, X-treme Moto Idiot Cross Champion, Micro Tanks Champion, Race Horse Tycoon Champion, Railway Line Champion, Raju Meter 2 Champion, Metal Slug - Kill the Nazis Champion, Decoder Champion, 1 in 24 Speed v32  Champion
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    Quote Originally Posted by NightSwimmer View Post
    The GOP obviously has it's lackeys well trained, so they face no political blow-back for their hypocrisy and malfeasance.
    Do you have any substance to discredit the previous two posts?

  6. #16
    Veteran Member HenryPorter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crusher View Post
    There is a lot of missing information here and that account is incredibly skewed. None of Trump's team has been nailed for Russian Collusion.

    It is now known that the FBI / DoJ had spies in the Trump campaign prior to the Papadopoulos event. Stefan Halper was inserted prior to the Papadopoulos event, which in and of itself is very sketchy for the FBI / DoJ.

    Why didn't they notify the Trump campaign of their issues with Carter Page or Manafort? Nope. They put in a spy and started tapping phones and unmasking Trump campaign staff.

    With the Clinton investigation it was all above the boards. No spies, no wire tapping, no early morning raids, no attacks on staff that they thought were not lying after they bankrupt them with legal attacks.

    The two are very different.
    Bullshit, you won't let go of the false narrative Trump planted to divert, you're a dutiful drone for the Republican talking points, which Paul Ryan (an even bigger drone in the food chain) has dismissed.

  7. #17
    Veteran Member bmanmcfly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HenryPorter View Post
    Bullshit, you won't let go of the false narrative Trump planted to divert, you're a dutiful drone for the Republican talking points, which Paul Ryan (an even bigger drone in the food chain) has dismissed.
    When you are strong on attack, your defences are weak.

  8. #18
    Moderator HayJenn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crusher View Post
    There is a lot of missing information here and that account is incredibly skewed. None of Trump's team has been nailed for Russian Collusion.

    It is now known that the FBI / DoJ had spies in the Trump campaign prior to the Papadopoulos event. Stefan Halper was inserted prior to the Papadopoulos event, which in and of itself is very sketchy for the FBI / DoJ.

    Why didn't they notify the Trump campaign of their issues with Carter Page or Manafort? Nope. They put in a spy and started tapping phones and unmasking Trump campaign staff.

    With the Clinton investigation it was all above the boards. No spies, no wire tapping, no early morning raids, no attacks on staff that they thought were not lying after they bankrupt them with legal attacks.

    The two are very different.
    For goodness sake - Spy Gate is not a "thing" at all. Been debunked over and over

    It was made up by Trump - and you fell for it.

    The "wiretapping" is bogus as well.

    The FBI was doing their job - you know, investigating Russia for meddling in our elections.

  9. #19
    Veteran Member bmanmcfly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HayJenn View Post
    For goodness sake - Spy Gate is not a "thing" at all. Been debunked over and over

    It was made up by Trump - and you fell for it.

    The "wiretapping" is bogus as well.

    The FBI was doing their job - you know, investigating Russia for meddling in our elections.
    Let me guess, snopes told you that it was fake?

    Haha... So, why was McCabe indicted and wanting to sing?

  10. #20
    Thought Provocateur NightSwimmer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HayJenn View Post
    For goodness sake - Spy Gate is not a "thing" at all. Been debunked over and over

    It was made up by Trump - and you fell for it.

    The "wiretapping" is bogus as well.

    The FBI was doing their job - you know, investigating Russia for meddling in our elections.

    They're hopeless.
    Thanks from Friday13

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