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Thread: Third Party?

  1. #11
    Cat-tastic Babba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bajisima View Post
    Ideally I would love more parties, 4 or 5. Then do runoff type scenarios like Europe. New parties appear there all the time and if popular they gain seats and power via coalition. It would be difficult here as you say though. We were made to be a 2 party system. I wouldn't want an independent party though, it would have to be a named party, progressives, tea party etc. Then they would form a coalition with dems or repubs. But it would be trying for quite a while getting it off the ground. I do worry though about 2020 and beyond since there has been some interest in celebrities running as indies. Dwayne Johnson said he would love to run as an independent but I don't know if he will.
    We would have to make major changes - including constitutional changes - in order for multiple parties to become viable. And you're right about the independent label. It really has no meaning beyond not being of one party or another. People who declare themselves independent still adhere to the ideology of one side or the other to an extent.
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  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by bajisima View Post
    Ideally I would love more parties, 4 or 5. Then do runoff type scenarios like Europe. New parties appear there all the time and if popular they gain seats and power via coalition. It would be difficult here as you say though. We were made to be a 2 party system. I wouldn't want an independent party though, it would have to be a named party, progressives, tea party etc. Then they would form a coalition with dems or repubs. But it would be trying for quite a while getting it off the ground. I do worry though about 2020 and beyond since there has been some interest in celebrities running as indies. Dwayne Johnson said he would love to run as an independent but I don't know if he will.
    Yes!

    More parties equals more choices.

    Instead of the D's and R's spending all their time and energy beating up on each other, maybe there would be a party working FOR something rather than just trying to keep themselves in power.

    Because that's what the D's and R's do: try to stay in office/power by any means necessary.

  3. #13
    Cat-tastic Babba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miller47 View Post
    Yes!

    More parties equals more choices.

    Instead of the D's and R's spending all their time and energy beating up on each other, maybe there would be a party working FOR something rather than just trying to keep themselves in power.

    Because that's what the D's and R's do: try to stay in office/power by any means necessary.
    Ya know what's more constructive? Working within the parties to get them to work for us. Pie in the sky dreaming about third parties for years and years has produced nothing. The Sanders supporters who are working against the Democratic party right now are aiding and abetting the Republicans. They're pissing me off. Has the party figured out a way to connect with enough voters? Not really. But Sanders and his supporters aren't helping with that.
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  4. #14
    Veteran Member bajisima's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minotaur View Post
    There is a lower percentage of third parties inhabited by a small segment of society who view elections as all about them. Perhaps it is residue of the "ME" generation. And so they chant "No one represents me" "Elections suck" "The 2 parties are the same" "All politicians are corrupt" "They all represent corporate greed"in NATIONAL ELECTIONS where third parties only act as spoilers. Pick the excuse for why they decide to vote against this country by picking candidates who can't win but can seat the worse candidates. The bottom line is they are jaded and angry. They see themselves as superior though they have little ability to focus on the real issues before them.

    The bottom line though is that the third party is important for regional elections where a few can be elected but nationally one would have to be struck blind to miss that as a national spoiler the few can do a lot of damage to this country as seen today and back in the Nader days. That appears to be what makes them happy. Third parties won't go away. They are a platform for the self-disenfranchised to look down on common sense and pretend they are driven by brilliance. Sorry you asked? lol
    I think they are a product of our education. I know my kids were taught in school to never compromise, always go with what you truly believe. So I do think sometimes that's part of it. In the stone age when I was young, politicians broke bread and got together and got something done. Compromise wasn't a dirty word. Today its "I am sticking to what I want no matter what." Compromise is a 4 letter word and perceived as letting someone abusing you. Its why we see these violent rallies on both sides, they want it their way instead of sitting down and finding a solution. So far we really haven't had any major candidates run third party but I think we will soon. With Trump having won, you see celebrities, athletes and such contemplating a third party run. Who knows if they will but the potential is there in the future.
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  5. #15
    Veteran Member bajisima's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miller47 View Post
    Yes!

    More parties equals more choices.

    Instead of the D's and R's spending all their time and energy beating up on each other, maybe there would be a party working FOR something rather than just trying to keep themselves in power.

    Because that's what the D's and R's do: try to stay in office/power by any means necessary.

    I think the problem has become that the two parties were starkly different. Visible differences not in terms of positions but how they achieved power. One was more corporate run while the other was grassroots, union working class. In fact when I was a kid, people I knew referred to democrats as the working class/blue collar party. Now its confused and mixed up so people don't know where to lay loyalty.

  6. #16
    Veteran Member bajisima's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Babba View Post
    Ya know what's more constructive? Working within the parties to get them to work for us. Pie in the sky dreaming about third parties for years and years has produced nothing. The Sanders supporters who are working against the Democratic party right now are aiding and abetting the Republicans. They're pissing me off. Has the party figured out a way to connect with enough voters? Not really. But Sanders and his supporters aren't helping with that.
    Sanders has always been like that though. He used to be a member of the Liberty Union party and then the Peoples Party which used to go after both republicans and democrats in Vermont. His true ties are still with the Peoples party in Vermont which is why he remains an indie. Truth be told, I don't understand why the DNC allowed him to run. I think they feared if they said no he would run third party and mess up the election like Nader. I do think based on what I read, his supporters are trying to get the Peoples Party on the national stage or at least the Democratic Socialist Party on ballots. We have had them up here on state and local elections and I know they are aiming for national status.

    Democratic Socialists make headway in U.S. after Trump's win | Reuters

  7. #17
    Human Bean KnotaFrayed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miller47 View Post
    I have been wishing for a third party for many years now.

    Not just a fringe party, but a party with a realistic chance to win.

    Probably won't happen anytime soon, however.
    A Third Party might work, if one formed that had an exceptional candidate that drew enough support from BOTH the main parties to win and yes, I agree, that is not going to happen anytime soon, based on Americans choosing to dumb down the Oval Office, instead of raise it up.

    If a Third Party gets an intelligent, practical and moderate leader, they aren't likely to draw from those who chose what is the opposite of the formerly described, because they seem to want as Bobby Jindal described as "stupid", NOT smart.

    Bernie Sanders makes some fantastic points and has some fantastic ideas, but when push came to shove, his supporters didn't listen to him and went the route that is warned about.....splitting support and giving the election to those who do not.

    A lot of people want a Third Party, but they don't seem to want to be the one's that lead the way and put the money and organization and candidates together that can compete with the two main parties. Gary Johnson and Bill Weld and Jill Stein, were afterthoughts when Bernie Sanders lost the primary (because he was a Democrat of convenience (to run for President)) and although he caucuses with Democrats, he has also spent a lifetime criticizing them. He knew that, but he also knew that unless people united around the Democratic candidate, anything close to his (Bernie's) ideology was going to be lost to mostly, the complete opposite. If one listened to Bernie, he not only said that he and Clinton were 100 times better on their WORST days than Trump and that if Clinton were elected, he also said, he and others could at least work with her to move more in the direction they wanted. If people did not stop Trump, even if he was a short term President, he would do a lot of turning back and damage, before things might progress again.

    The only possible GOOD thing about Trump, is that he is waking people up to what happens if you stay at home, instead of vote and what happens (it happened to Republicans when H. Ross Perot ran in the early '90's) when you divide (you fall) and maybe, just maybe, they can turn things around, IF, they truly learned something and IF, they united behind ONE candidate.

    In addition, as already mentioned in a post here. Unless a Third Party is represented in any sort of strength in Congress, they are still subjugate to whatever party they need to caucus with to make up a majority vote to get any of their Third Party policies through.

    It is not that a Third Party cannot work or put up fantastic candidates, it is just that they have to do so, then get enough people from all the other parties, so those candidates can win elections. If that occurs, it is then likely to gravitate to one of the old main parties, losing out in popularity to become a minor party and we go back to two major parties again. A Third Party throws off the balance and while they seem to work in other nations, I'm not sure they will work so well here, unless they gain a major foothold and maintain it, then the voting formula becomes more complicated with regard to balance and maintenance of power, which even where multiples of parties beyond 2 exist in more prevalence, there still remain 2 main parties, with regard to support. One may have a slight advantage in numbers over the next largest and those of other parties can still tip the balance with which of the two major parties they throw their support behind or caucus with, but the balance and the struggle still comes down, basically, to just two. While there can be a "horse race" for a political seat, there are no place and show (2nd and 3rd) place seats to be had. You either win or you lose. This may be in part why some political systems (perhaps ours) have lost sight of an "honest" win and have changed their focus to "win at any cost", including the selling of one's ethics, souls and even moral (religious or not) values. Look for any means to "win", even by cheating, if you can walk a fine line between doing so and not and step over the line enough to "win", but not enough that you'll be held accountable for illegal cheating or try to hide your illegal cheating and hope no one finds out. It's sad that "fact checkers" had to be developed in this day and age to do what too many voters do not and propagandists still try to claim that corroborated facts are "fake", confusing the capacity of people to distinguish between what is real and what is not and appealing to those who never took and still never take the time, to research and corroborate facts or be skeptical and speak up about what so called "friends" (people in "their side") are telling them.

    While many people are sick of the inability of the existing two parties to get much done, simply jumping to a Third (or other additional ones) Party does not seem like it is going to solve anything, until the base reasons the two main parties cannot get something done, is figured out and solved. I think a part of that answer lies in the last election. Polls and cries from all sorts of people about how ineffective our Congress is, were NOT reflected in the election results where more than 90% of incumbents were re-elected. Basically, what it seems to come down to is that everyone blames the OTHER party's incumbents for the dysfunction in Congress, NOT their own. That seems to indicate the gridlock in Congress is reflective of the opposing views within the society of people that elect those who make up Congress. Until Americans can get it together on many of their differences of opinion, it seems unlikely, Third Party or not, that is going to change in Congress.
    Last edited by KnotaFrayed; 8th August 2017 at 06:27 AM.
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  8. #18
    Veteran Member MaryAnne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bajisima View Post
    I think they are a product of our education. I know my kids were taught in school to never compromise, always go with what you truly believe. So I do think sometimes that's part of it. In the stone age when I was young, politicians broke bread and got together and got something done. Compromise wasn't a dirty word. Today its "I am sticking to what I want no matter what." Compromise is a 4 letter word and perceived as letting someone abusing you. Its why we see these violent rallies on both sides, they want it their way instead of sitting down and finding a solution. So far we really haven't had any major candidates run third party but I think we will soon. With Trump having won, you see celebrities, athletes and such contemplating a third party run. Who knows if they will but the potential is there in the future.
    And that is the very attitude that is failing right now. The very reason nothing is accomplished.

    I am so tired of the media telling us Bernie Sanders speaks for the Democratic Party. No,he is not a Democrat. He pretended to be one to run for President. He is a fraud,pretender, and so are those in the DNC who are promoting him. I blame Biden for backing Perez and Bernie for Ellison.

    Until we clean out the far,far left in the Democratic Party we will keep on losing. They do not compromise any more than The far right. Both are detrimental to accomplishing anything.
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  9. #19
    Chaos in fourteen lines Minotaur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bajisima View Post
    I think they are a product of our education. I know my kids were taught in school to never compromise, always go with what you truly believe. So I do think sometimes that's part of it. In the stone age when I was young, politicians broke bread and got together and got something done. Compromise wasn't a dirty word. Today its "I am sticking to what I want no matter what." Compromise is a 4 letter word and perceived as letting someone abusing you. Its why we see these violent rallies on both sides, they want it their way instead of sitting down and finding a solution. So far we really haven't had any major candidates run third party but I think we will soon. With Trump having won, you see celebrities, athletes and such contemplating a third party run. Who knows if they will but the potential is there in the future.
    Third party does not draw mainstream candidates so whether a mainstream is a candidate is a non-starter. The voting majority is more middle road left and right, not far right or far left. That has to be seen with eyes wide open. Name recognition does not a candidate make if indeed the public does not relate to a third party. The two major parties have the built-in luxury of having voters who vote blindly for anyone in their party. If republicans can put up a brain surgeon, a pizza guy, and a third rate TV host and get a percentage of support you know the two parties are all you have. For a third party to do it without that mass support is comical more than logical.

    Never compromise doesn't actually mean never make sense. Voters can make that effort to understand the issues that are screaming at them and put thought into it. Just because they want an impossible issue that is not only illegal but not on the table and impossible to pass is not a very good sign that we are an educated society. The last election put women's rights, Dreamers, the environment, gay rights, Global partnerships, judicial overreach, SCOTUS makeup, and more in serious danger even before the election. Nothing can explain the mind fart voting that took place as some voters focused on breaking up banks that did nothing wrong. LOL

    If this dumbed down voting block continues this country will be in even more trouble.
    Last edited by Minotaur; 8th August 2017 at 06:19 AM.
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  10. #20
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    The thing is, parties will always coalesce because as 2 or 3 groups unite to win an election, they'll win. If the other 2 or 3 groups remain isolated, they'll lose. Every time. So natural forces will drive groups together into the fewest possible groups that will provide any semblance of choice whatsoever.
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