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Thread: Have You Ever Stopped and Thought It All the Way Through?

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Claudius the God View Post
    I cannot speak for others on this board, only myself. I have been reading a newspaper or two every single day (OK, make it 90% of the days) between 1970 (I was a paperboy in 70-72 and read it every day) and today. After 72, I paid a lot of attention because I was scared to death of getting drafted. Why do I mention this? Because in those decades I was exposed to the vast gamut of ideas and opinions expressed by every kind of ideology in the mainstream at the time. How could I possibly escape the ideas of conservatives having lived this long and followed politics for decades? In addition, I have been a daily poster on blogs like this one since 2000. I believe I can argue the other side of my opinion as well or better than most who disagree with me simply because I have heard it all. And believe me, there was a time when blogs like this attracted some right wing intellectual giants with whom I battled in a game of wits and knowledge. I will not claim I won every encounter because in politics winning an argument is damn near impossible. All I can say is that yes, I have been exposed to the full range of conservative ideas and found them wanting. In fact, I challenge this boards conservatives to create a thread that actually defines a conservative today. Tell us what binds you to this ideology, give us reasons to believe you are right. Give us examples of other cultures or times when your ideas dominated the economy, education, business, philosophy and so on. I am ready to be convinced but you better have thought it through. Take your time.
    Anyone who thinks that a word that symbolizes a large group of different people can be "defined" might want to consider the study of semantics as a sidelight. Political terms are meant to be elastic so that people can listen to their emotions and become committed without knowing exactly what they are committing. That's how politics works. High emotions. Not much depth of thought.

    I am by nature, a contrarian. Many of the people I admire are contrarians. I am very conservative when surrounded by people who have made a religion of their progressive ideals. But I like liberals as my entertainers and many of my friends. I believe in the blending of opinions into communities. But I live on the periphery of such communities because as soon as someone tries to put me in a box, I rebel against the constrictions. The truth of my opposition positioning tells a lot more about me than any political label might.
    Last edited by kmiller1610; 27th April 2018 at 01:38 PM.

  2. #12
    Flibbertigibbet Wonderer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Claudius the God View Post
    I cannot speak for others on this board, only myself. I have been reading a newspaper or two every single day (OK, make it 90% of the days) between 1970 (I was a paperboy in 70-72 and read it every day) and today. After 72, I paid a lot of attention because I was scared to death of getting drafted. Why do I mention this? Because in those decades I was exposed to the vast gamut of ideas and opinions expressed by every kind of ideology in the mainstream at the time. How could I possibly escape the ideas of conservatives having lived this long and followed politics for decades? In addition, I have been a daily poster on blogs like this one since 2000. I believe I can argue the other side of my opinion as well or better than most who disagree with me simply because I have heard it all. And believe me, there was a time when blogs like this attracted some right wing intellectual giants with whom I battled in a game of wits and knowledge. I will not claim I won every encounter because in politics winning an argument is damn near impossible. All I can say is that yes, I have been exposed to the full range of conservative ideas and found them wanting. In fact, I challenge this boards conservatives to create a thread that actually defines a conservative today. Tell us what binds you to this ideology, give us reasons to believe you are right. Give us examples of other cultures or times when your ideas dominated the economy, education, business, philosophy and so on. I am ready to be convinced but you better have thought it through. Take your time.
    I did that a few months back: What Is It That Makes You Conservative?

    Post #277 sets out my stances but the caveat here is that I'm not necessarily a full-on conservative, but rather a fiscal conservative/social moderate with libertarian leanings. And I think labels are lazy and easily abused.
    Last edited by Wonderer; 27th April 2018 at 01:42 PM.
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  3. #13
    DEEP STATE CEO Blues63's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bajisima View Post
    The source thing is a pet peeve of mine. Each side has their own preferences and I always feel like if someone doesnt like the source, then Google the subject and find one you like on the topic. But overall, politics has become a team sport, we root for our own team and knock down the competitor. Basically we do all the things, society says decent people shouldnt do, mock, name call, etc.
    As any historian knows, source criticism is the first step in evaluating a premise or an hypothesis. But I agree one must find a more accurate or objective source for the discussion to continue with any degree of validity and in the case of the many highly biased opinion pieces presented here (especially those that are plucked from the unhealthy depths of the internet swamp) it is best to go back to the original piece that inspired the partisan op-ed (one member that comes to mind repeatedly posts op-ed pieces that blatantly misrepresent the OS, and I will continue to challenge such unethical behaviour even if it is unpopular).

    Many pieces are presented here merely to 'beat up' the other side and I feel there is no point in debating a topic that is based upon the misrepresentation of an original source merely to achieve this aim-we see far too much of that and I will expose this practice every time I see it.

    So, I'm guilty of source criticism and I will never apologise for it, but at least I try to post the original when it can be found in order to provide a semblance of balance.
    Last edited by Blues63; 27th April 2018 at 02:12 PM.
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  4. #14
    Spock of Vulcan Ian Jeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blues63 View Post
    As any historian knows, source criticism is the first step in evaluating a premise or an hypothesis. But I agree one must find a more accurate or objective source for the discussion to continue with any degree of validity and in the case of the many highly biased opinion pieces presented here (especially those that are plucked from the unhealthy depths of the internet swamp) it is best to go back to the original piece that inspired the partisan op-ed (one member that comes to mind repeatedly posts op-ed pieces that blatantly misrepresent the OS, and I will continue to challenge such unethical behaviour even if it is unpopular).

    Many pieces are presented here merely to 'beat up' the other side and I feel there is no point in debating a topic that is based upon the misrepresentation of an original source merely to achieve this aim-we see far too much of that and I will expose this practice every time I see it.

    So, I'm guilty of source criticism and I will never apologise for it, but at least I try to post the original when it can be found in order to provide a semblance of balance.
    Criticizing sources with some bias probably has little justification most of the time. But when we see stuff from the extremes, discussing the substance without source criticism by the very fact of that discussion gives credence to a story that otherwise has little or none to begin with.

  5. #15
    Veteran Member cpicturetaker12's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonderer View Post
    Sorry - for the semi-vague thread title, but I'm just interested in throwing this out for discussion. Seems as though a significant portion of the energy expended on this board (and many like it) is directed toward discrediting "the other guy." Whether it's questioning the source(s) linked, or playing the "whatabout" game, or pointing out the perceived hypocrisy of those on "the other side." So...just wondering...what, really, is the end game?

    If the "other side" is discredited, does that mean we don't have to consider what they're saying? I do realize some comments/positions are so extreme as to perhaps not warrant a substantive response. But I do sometimes get to wondering what we (most of us) are actually doing? Hoping to persuade? Hoping to dissuade? Seeking internet points?
    Discrediting? Of course. If you're throwing up shit sites, fake news, conspiracy theories and crap that a college freshman wouldn't be able to use for a term paper, then discrediting is required. Early, fast. Call bullshit as soon as it goes up.
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  6. #16
    Flibbertigibbet Wonderer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cpicturetaker12 View Post
    Discrediting? Of course. If you're throwing up shit sites, fake news, conspiracy theories and crap that a college freshman wouldn't be able to use for a term paper, then discrediting is required. Early, fast. Call bullshit as soon as it goes up.
    May I ask why you rely so heavily on Raw Story then?

  7. #17
    Member a777pilot's Avatar
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    You're all wrong. I'm the only one that knows the answers.

    Go ahead and try me. Ask me a question.

  8. #18
    Thought Provocateur NightSwimmer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonderer View Post
    Sorry - for the semi-vague thread title, but I'm just interested in throwing this out for discussion. Seems as though a significant portion of the energy expended on this board (and many like it) is directed toward discrediting "the other guy." Whether it's questioning the source(s) linked, or playing the "whatabout" game, or pointing out the perceived hypocrisy of those on "the other side." So...just wondering...what, really, is the end game?

    If the "other side" is discredited, does that mean we don't have to consider what they're saying? I do realize some comments/positions are so extreme as to perhaps not warrant a substantive response. But I do sometimes get to wondering what we (most of us) are actually doing? Hoping to persuade? Hoping to dissuade? Seeking internet points?

    Some folks are experimenting with inviting people from "both sides" to come face-to-face with one another at dinner and discuss their differences.

    Perhaps we have too few face-to-face encounters in this modern world?
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  9. #19
    Veteran Member cpicturetaker12's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blues63 View Post
    As any historian knows, source criticism is the first step in evaluating a premise or an hypothesis. But I agree one must find a more accurate or objective source for the discussion to continue with any degree of validity and in the case of the many highly biased opinion pieces presented here (especially those that are plucked from the unhealthy depths of the internet swamp) it is best to go back to the original piece that inspired the partisan op-ed (one member that comes to mind repeatedly posts op-ed pieces that blatantly misrepresent the OS, and I will continue to challenge such unethical behaviour even if it is unpopular).<br>
    <br>
    Many pieces are presented here merely to 'beat up' the other side and I feel there is no point in debating a topic that is based upon the misrepresentation of an original source merely to achieve this aim-we see far too much of that and I will expose this practice every time I see it.<br>
    <br>
    So, I'm guilty of source criticism and I will never apologise for it, but at least I try to post the original when it can be found in order to provide a semblance of balance.
    <br>
    <br>
    That ship has sailed on this board. There is a new WINGER site fouling this board&nbsp; ALMOST every day. I've got underwear in my drawer older than these crapsites and sources.&nbsp; But up they go! <br>
    <br>
    1 google search and you can find which WINGER org it's connected to and/or paid for by which billionare. It's astonishing there are never any more than '3 degrees of separation' to FOX, the KOCHS, the Mercers (of late), the US Chamber of Commerce ,the NRA, ALEC, Family Research Council to name some of the most well connected.
    Last edited by cpicturetaker12; 27th April 2018 at 08:10 PM.
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  10. #20
    Veteran Member cpicturetaker12's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by a777pilot View Post
    You're all wrong. I'm the only one that knows the answers.

    Go ahead and try me. Ask me a question.
    I'm assuming that's a joke. Lol!
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