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Thread: Have You Ever Stopped and Thought It All the Way Through?

  1. #51
    Spock of Vulcan Ian Jeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bonehead View Post
    yes. I think we all (most of us, anyway) understand what the solution is. my question is more basic - what led us to the situation we find ourselves in today? is this endemic of the system we have, or is it a more human failing?
    I do not believe the system has anything to do with it. Rasselas has, IMO, adequately addressed the issue in his two most recent posts (in this thread, as of the time/date stamp of this post).

  2. #52
    Veteran Member bonehead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Jeffrey View Post
    I do not believe the system has anything to do with it. Rasselas has, IMO, adequately addressed the issue in his two most recent posts (in this thread, as of the time/date stamp of this post).
    understand. so, the system worked as designed to work. even though it's only the fifth time in our history where the popular vote did not coincide with the electoral college vote?

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by bonehead View Post
    so, collectively, we ended up selecting "a pig in a poke" - as the saying goes.
    That's what happens when you don't look in the poke.
    Thanks from bonehead

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by bonehead View Post
    understand. so, the system worked as designed to work. even though it's only the fifth time in our history where the popular vote did not coincide with the electoral college vote?
    Ian may disagree, but I think our Founders would have expected the electors (who are part of the elite) to refuse to follow through on their state's voting if they saw someone truly horrid getting into the presidency as a result. The EC is partly a means of empowering states over the popular vote, but it's also an elitist check on the popular vote.

  5. #55
    Veteran Member bonehead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasselas View Post
    That's what happens when you don't look in the poke.
    absolutely. I'm thinking if "none of the above" would have been a choice, it might have turned out differently - but who knows.

  6. #56
    Human Bean KnotaFrayed's Avatar
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    From my perspective, it's about searching to find the truth. It seems unless someone is trying to obscure the truth for an illegitimate reason, that we should all want to know the truth, if for no other reason than to know what to trust. Without trust, how does any society or body of people function at its highest level, much less a level that is minimally functional?

    I'm pretty sure I am not going to change too many people's minds here, if any and especially any paid to be here as shills, but it sure seems like cases should be made for the truth, so that, as we have seen, especially in more recent years and with more and more people hooking up to the internet and with social media, lying, deceit and cheating appear to be coming a way of life and a norm. Who on earth, two and a half decades ago, would have imagined that in the last 10 - 15 years, such a thing as "fact checkers" would be necessary, as a means to at minimum, investigate and compare what people in places of power or held with some level of celebrity or esteem are saying, with what facts and figures show? How is it in the year 2018, we have a POTUS who can Tweet or let loose with a verbal string of lies (call them half truths, contradictions, mistaken facts, whatever) and still have people not only support him, but trust him.

    I really do not believe a lie is something that is in the eye of the beholder, but something that can be fairly and justly discredited, with evidence to show how it is false. Simply calling something a lie or "fake", does not make it so, yet so many people seem to take what another person tells them as truth, solely based on their word or some associative affiliation that causes them to trust the person telling them something, with no further verification. In other words, if someone identifies themselves as your "friend", politically or otherwise, then they are to be trusted without any sort of vetting or checking out, whether what they say, can be verified and corroborated with others, including from political "opposition" sources or sources that are know to be trusted, no matter what anyone's politics are.

    Again, I am fairly certain I am not going to change to many people's minds, especially those who are posting things I come here to refute, so if nothing else, more than one take on any subject or issue put out on the boards, is presented, where it seems necessary to show there is or might be evidence (with sources) that would dispute claims or information put out by some as the sole "truth". Any one is free to then come back with their own case about why what I have presented is false and back it up with their own facts, figures ad evidence.

    While this forum is not a court of law and there is no rule that everyone has to act like a stuffed shirt or plaintiffs, defendants, lawyers and judges, the future of our nation and the world is being decided by people having these discussions who are in the positions of power to make decisions based on them and in many nations of the world, they are people that are elected. Thus, a well informed electorate, as Thomas Jefferson and other founders of this nation were insistent about, is what will preserve free societies from despotism as well as present a higher standard of living, if not financially, from the standpoint of intellectual pursuits of the type that solve problems that arise, when it comes to human survival. An educated and well informed electorate makes better choices when it comes to who they choose to represent humanity in their government and the assumption is, an educated and well informed electorate will have an interest in the truth and seek it out, so they are not taken, cheated, deceived and betrayed by con artists and those with ulterior motives behind their facades.

    I don't propose to suggest I know it all, but only that in seeking the truth, I will show what I find, in that search and throw out questions, the questions I am asking myself to other posters, so we can all answer them ourselves or to see if others will go through a thought process they may not have yet gone through to come to the same conclusions I and others have, based on what I and others used to come up with the same conclusions. It's not always correct, but it does ask questions that it seems many times, some are not asking and if they did ask, the research they would need to do to come up with the answers, would lead them in the same direction and conclusions.

    If none of the posters I debate with or respond to change their minds from anything I put out there or any questions they are encouraged to ask themselves, for whatever reasons, even if it is not to admit they came to the same conclusion because it might mean admitting it changed their mind, that is okay. If it changes the mind or provokes thoughts of any one of those looking in, but never posting, that may be a good thing, assuming that an interest in the truth and making decisions based on what the truth might be or closer to, means a healthier society and one that has a better chance of surviving into the future because it is not in denial of the truth or believing those that do not want people to know the truth because it would put a damper on their personal agendas or make them weaker or less gluttonously wealthy.

    In other words, I am not here to change anyone's mind, but to "think it through" with others and make a case for what can be found, to support the truth, "Thinking it through" seems not only a good subject to discuss, but a good pursuit, along with an interest in the truth and why the truth counts to keep a society healthy and is perhaps more important than simply "winning" by any means, including deceit, deception, lies, unethical means, etc. (a hollow, dishonest "win") that is not a "win" in any real sense of the word, because it was not achieved with honesty and integrity and all the things that make a real, winner.
    Last edited by KnotaFrayed; 2nd May 2018 at 09:17 AM.

  7. #57
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    The first step toward wisdom is to know what you don't know. Right now, we don't know what evidence the Mueller probe has gathered. We do know a lot of public information. I don't think any reasonable, objective view of the public information could avoid concluding that there is a lot of suspicious behavior on the part of Trump and those in his orbit. Reasonable suspicion. What we don't know is the evidence that's been uncovered as a result of that reasonable suspicion.

    It's not reasonable to convict someone based on suspicions. It's also not reasonable to exonerate someone based on incomplete information regarding their alleged guilt. And that's where we are. We'll be here until something changes, which probably means more public legal actions from either the Mueller investigation or the Cohen prosecution.
    Thanks from KnotaFrayed

  8. #58
    Member Claudius the God's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonderer View Post
    Thank you for taking a look at it. It's a fairly lengthy thread. That's why I directed you to Post #277. That is where I spell out my personal stances.
    OK, I will go to that one then, it must have been a really long thread.
    Thanks from Wonderer

  9. #59
    Member Claudius the God's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasselas View Post
    The first step toward wisdom is to know what you don't know. Right now, we don't know what evidence the Mueller probe has gathered. We do know a lot of public information. I don't think any reasonable, objective view of the public information could avoid concluding that there is a lot of suspicious behavior on the part of Trump and those in his orbit. Reasonable suspicion. What we don't know is the evidence that's been uncovered as a result of that reasonable suspicion.

    It's not reasonable to convict someone based on suspicions. It's also not reasonable to exonerate someone based on incomplete information regarding their alleged guilt. And that's where we are. We'll be here until something changes, which probably means more public legal actions from either the Mueller investigation or the Cohen prosecution.
    Well said but we do know that the FBI and a federal judge decided there was enough evidence of a crime to issue search warrants and in some cases, indictments.

  10. #60
    Spock of Vulcan Ian Jeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasselas View Post
    Ian may disagree, but I think our Founders would have expected the electors (who are part of the elite) to refuse to follow through on their state's voting if they saw someone truly horrid getting into the presidency as a result. The EC is partly a means of empowering states over the popular vote, but it's also an elitist check on the popular vote.
    The electors were not originally to have chosen the electors at all, unless the state legislature provided for it. See U.S. Const. art. II, 1. Even the candidates were not originally chosen by popular vote; the primary did not come along until later.
    Thanks from Rasselas

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