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Thread: Why Iím taking down my cityís Confederate monuments

  1. #111
    My kingdom for theTeat Panzareta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmanmcfly View Post
    Then why would you argue that they all supported slavery?
    Who said "they" all supported slavery? Isn't the topic mainly about officers of the Army of the CSA? You know the ones that are depicted by statues of their likeness in town squares and parks? Are there even statues of individual named rank and file soldiers in the South and are they among those being taken down?
    Last edited by Panzareta; 18th May 2017 at 09:16 PM.

  2. #112
    Veteran Member Southern Dad's Avatar
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    No, all confederates did not support slavery. Just as all Germans in 1941 were not Nazis. As a matter of fact most in the south did not own slaves or have anything to do with slavery. The well to do owned slaves. The plantation owners owned slaves. Most of those that fought for the south, didn't give a crap about slavery. They referred to the war as the war of northern aggression. They were fighting to protect their homeland. To protect their families. When General Sherman did his famous Savannah Campaign or as it is more commonly known as Sherman's March to the Sea, he didn't just burn down the homes of those that owned slaves. He and his men burned nearly everything they encountered, homes, bridges, stores, they even destroyed the railroad.

    Keep in mind, that I am from Akron. My ancestors fought on the side of the union except one cousin who lives in Kentucky. This war pitted brother against brother, in many cases just because of geography. The majority of those in the south were fighting to protect their homes, their families, and their states. They didn't have the internet or today's media to research it.

  3. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Man View Post
    It reminds me of the tensions in the ex-Soviet world, over removal of the Communist monuments. To some Ukrainians or Estonians they represent oppression or occupation. To ethnic Russians (and plenty of Ukrainians too), they represent their heritage, the glory of their ancestors...

    In Estonia, in Tallinn, in 2007, the removal of the Red Army Bronze Soldier from the capital's downtown resulting in rioting and looting and destruction of Estonian businesses by ethnic Russian youths







    The Estonian government at the time accused the Russian government of encouraging and even outright organizing the riots, allegedly there were members of Putin youth groups from Russia directing and leading the rioters. Russian hackers also performed a masssive cyber attack which effectively temporarily shut down all internet in Estonia. And members of those aforementioned pro-Kremlin youth groups attacked the Estonian ambassador's car in Moscow and beat up one 9f her bodyguards, who had to use paper spray to fight them off...

    In the end, fearing more violent unrest in their capital, and in the face of nasty rhetoric from Moscow, the Estonian authorities caved, and changed their original plan (to break up and destroy the monument) and, instead, put it back up, at a Soviet military cemetery in the suburbs of Tallinn, with full honors, where it now stands and the Russians can pay respects to it at their convenience


    That's one example of how dangerous it is to mess with history... Then, you got Ukraine, where the nationalists destruction of Soviet monuments after the 2014 Maidan Revolution, was one of the driving factors for the subsequent secession of Crimea and the civil war tbat broke out in the Donbass and has now claimed at least 10,000 lives...

    History is best left the hell alone...
    I understand Estonians, who wanted to get rid of this monument. After all it was more for them the symbol of the 2 Soviet occupations they had than anything having to do with kind of a liberation. Don't forget that an important percentage of the native population of Estonia has benn deported by the Soviet rulers....... This side of History needs also to be mentioned.....
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  4. #114
    Veteran Member DebateDrone's Avatar
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    They got the General Lee.





    No respect/

  5. #115
    You just made the list! Macduff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DebateDrone View Post
    They got the General Lee.





    No respect/

  6. #116
    nic
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    Nattering naybob nic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RNG View Post
    I'm torn. It does remind me a bit of the Taliban blowing up those huge Buddha statues carved into mountainsides in Afghanistan, a loss of art. But if in fact the statues are being moved to museums where they can be shown and an explanation of their history and significance is detailed, it's a bit less wrong.

    However, it still stinks a bit of censorship to me.

    I am really conflicted.
    Do you put those civil war figures on the same level as Buddah or other religious figures?

  7. #117
    olguy OlGuy's Avatar
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  8. #118
    Fuck Trump The Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by galatin View Post
    I understand Estonians, who wanted to get rid of this monument. After all it was more for them the symbol of the 2 Soviet occupations they had than anything having to do with kind of a liberation. Don't forget that an important percentage of the native population of Estonia has benn deported by the Soviet rulers....... This side of History needs also to be mentioned.....
    Sure.

    And so we should also mention Estonians collaborating with the Nazis during WWII, in same spirit?

    Something which they won't apologize for, today: Estonia's severe case of Holocaust amnesia | Efraim Zuroff | The Blogs | The Times of Israel

  9. #119
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    After all the Molotov Ribbentrop agreement led also to the invasion of Poland also by Soviet Union and the occupation of the Baltic countries. So the first to make a pact with the devil was Soviet Union with nazi Germany and it is understandable that Estonian or others were rather ready to make a pact with the other devil..... the nazis to get rid of Sovietic rule ...... It does not excuse Einsatzgruppen or the extermination of Jews, but after all the Goulag was also a way to exterminate people not for racial resaons but because they could be a danger for the Soviet rulers.... If we put on a balnce sheet the number of dead either on the side of the nazis and on the side of the Soviet terror what would be the results ? It doesnot mean that the people of Soviet Union made great sacrify to get rid of the nazis, but the way Stalin dealt with at first the nazis needs not to be forgotten..
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  10. #120
    Polemicist Supremum Monk-Eye's Avatar
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    Blaming Victims For Retaliation

    " Blaming Victims For Retaliation "

    * Peoples Fed Up With Fictional Ishmaelism Ass Clowns *

    Quote Originally Posted by OlGuy View Post
    I am thinking , what does one have to do to piss off a buddhist monk ?

    Whatever it is , must really , really SUCK !

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religi...lence_in_India
    Sikandar the Iconoclast (1399-1416 AD)
    After Timur left, different Muslim Sultans enforced their power in what used to be Delhi Sultanate. In Kashmir, Sultan Sikandar began expanding, and unleashed religious violence that earned him the name but-shikan or idol-breaker.[71] He earned this sobriquet because of the sheer scale of desecration and destruction of Hindu and Buddhist temples, shrines, ashrams, hermitages and other holy places in what is now known as Kashmir and its neighboring territories. He destroyed vast majority of Hindu and Buddhist temples in his reach in Kashmir region (north and northwest India).[72][73] Encouraged by Islamic theologian, Muhammad Hamadani, Sikandar Butshikan also destroyed ancient Hindu and Buddhist books and banned followers of dharmic religions from prayers, dance, music, consumption of wine and observation of their religious festivals.[74][75]

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