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Thread: Was Civilization Just a Big Mistake?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Babba View Post
    Well, I think climate change may reduce the population and take care of the problem of a lack jobs. Just after the Black Plague ended, life for the average person improved considerably because of the reduced population and lack of workers. That meant it was an employee's market and they demand better wages and working conditions. And it lead to the Renaissance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rasselas View Post
    Except that the response to peasant revolts was brutal and fairly quick. The "it lead to the Renaissance" claim is a little dubious, IMO. May have been a contributing factor because of economic displacement leading to the efficacy of banks. Not sure it was a causal facto, though.

    The problem with THIS revolution is that while the Black Plague killed about half of Europe, the displacement of THIS industrial revolution may reduce the useful human population in developed countries by 90%.
    You're both not wrong...

    The Black Plague killed indiscriminately, so, the bourgeoisie, who would normally be able to escape tragedy. So, the aristocracy was equally decimated and was unable to rule with the iron fist, so people who are usually the ones doing the killing and dying became a larger part of the rule making process and because people were not oppressed they had greater surpluses then more free time then more innovation and over some time it was thought of as a renaissance. It's not necessarily a cause and effect, but because many of the ruling class also died there was a reduced ability to oppress the people. When there's little disparity in effective power you can't really oppress people effectively.

    Side note, Economic collapse is far more likely to cause mass death than "climate change"...

  2. #22
    Southern Strategy Liberal OldGaffer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmanmcfly View Post
    You're both not wrong...

    The Black Plague killed indiscriminately, so, the bourgeoisie, who would normally be able to escape tragedy. So, the aristocracy was equally decimated and was unable to rule with the iron fist, so people who are usually the ones doing the killing and dying became a larger part of the rule making process and because people were not oppressed they had greater surpluses then more free time then more innovation and over some time it was thought of as a renaissance. It's not necessarily a cause and effect, but because many of the ruling class also died there was a reduced ability to oppress the people. When there's little disparity in effective power you can't really oppress people effectively.

    Side note, Economic collapse is far more likely to cause mass death than "climate change"...
    Climate change can cause economic collapse.....

    https://link.springer.com/article/10...018-015-0116-3

    https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2015/...limate-change/

    https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2015/...limate-change/

    https://www.unicef.org/esaro/Climate..._in_Africa.pdf

    Edit: Added links for the willfully ignorant that have never heard of climate change affecting an economy and do not believe it is possible
    Last edited by OldGaffer; 24th November 2017 at 02:39 PM.
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldGaffer View Post
    Climate change can cause economic collapse.....

    https://link.springer.com/article/10...018-015-0116-3

    https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2015/...limate-change/

    https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2015/...limate-change/

    https://www.unicef.org/esaro/Climate..._in_Africa.pdf

    Edit: Added links for the willfully ignorant that have never heard of climate change affecting an economy and do not believe it is possible
    Malthusian philosophical thought has a 200+ year evidence to the contrary.

  4. #24
    Master political analyst Dittohead not!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmanmcfly View Post
    You're both not wrong...

    The Black Plague killed indiscriminately, so, the bourgeoisie, who would normally be able to escape tragedy. So, the aristocracy was equally decimated and was unable to rule with the iron fist, so people who are usually the ones doing the killing and dying became a larger part of the rule making process and because people were not oppressed they had greater surpluses then more free time then more innovation and over some time it was thought of as a renaissance. It's not necessarily a cause and effect, but because many of the ruling class also died there was a reduced ability to oppress the people. When there's little disparity in effective power you can't really oppress people effectively.

    Side note, Economic collapse is far more likely to cause mass death than "climate change"...
    But climate change has an advantage, from an evolutionary perspective. Back about 70,000 years ago, the human population was way down due to climate change. The more difficult circumstances meant that the most adaptable and strongest of the human population survived and were able to pass their genes on to the next generation. The result was a marked improvement in the artifacts found after that time, and a migration from Africa to populate every continent but Antarctica. Indiscriminate death can't improve on the gene pool like that.
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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    But climate change has an advantage, from an evolutionary perspective. Back about 70,000 years ago, the human population was way down due to climate change. The more difficult circumstances meant that the most adaptable and strongest of the human population survived and were able to pass their genes on to the next generation. The result was a marked improvement in the artifacts found after that time, and a migration from Africa to populate every continent but Antarctica. Indiscriminate death can't improve on the gene pool like that.
    Oh, my mistake, I thought you were talking about AGW.

    Well, yes, catastrophic changes will force an "adapt or die" environment, but if those changes are going to happen nothing we can do would really be able to either predict or prevent.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmanmcfly View Post
    Oh, my mistake, I thought you were talking about AGW.

    Well, yes, catastrophic changes will force an "adapt or die" environment, but if those changes are going to happen nothing we can do would really be able to either predict or prevent.
    Mitigating climate change would take a collective effort that not many are ready to make. First, we have to admit that there's a problem, and that we might be able to do something about it, which may or may not be true.

    But, the effects of climate change is likely to affect the least prepared, the least adaptable, just like it did all those years ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Mitigating climate change would take a collective effort that not many are ready to make. First, we have to admit that there's a problem, and that we might be able to do something about it, which may or may not be true.

    But, the effects of climate change is likely to affect the least prepared, the least adaptable, just like it did all those years ago.
    Humanity will probably be better served by admitting that it's beyond our ability to control climate through taxation.
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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Mitigating climate change would take a collective effort that not many are ready to make. First, we have to admit that there's a problem, and that we might be able to do something about it, which may or may not be true.

    But, the effects of climate change is likely to affect the least prepared, the least adaptable, just like it did all those years ago.
    Lmao... So because there was natural climate change in the past means that humans are causing claim ate change now.

    I hope that wasn't your intent.

  9. #29
    Southern Strategy Liberal OldGaffer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmanmcfly View Post
    Lmao... So because there was natural climate change in the past means that humans are causing claim ate change now.

    I hope that wasn't your intent.
    Ever hear of "the dust bowl", and ever read the causes?
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  10. #30
    Southern Strategy Liberal OldGaffer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmanmcfly View Post
    Malthusian philosophical thought has a 200+ year evidence to the contrary.
    So all my links are just "fake news" in your mind? Why bother....

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