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Thread: Was Civilization Just a Big Mistake?

  1. #31
    Cat-tastic Babba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmanmcfly View Post
    You're both not wrong...

    The Black Plague killed indiscriminately, so, the bourgeoisie, who would normally be able to escape tragedy. So, the aristocracy was equally decimated and was unable to rule with the iron fist, so people who are usually the ones doing the killing and dying became a larger part of the rule making process and because people were not oppressed they had greater surpluses then more free time then more innovation and over some time it was thought of as a renaissance. It's not necessarily a cause and effect, but because many of the ruling class also died there was a reduced ability to oppress the people. When there's little disparity in effective power you can't really oppress people effectively.

    Side note, Economic collapse is far more likely to cause mass death than "climate change"...
    Well, either way it was ultimately a good thing for the peasants who survived. And while the upper economic class was affected, the peasants were much more affected because of their living conditions. So many, many more peasants died than the upper class. So, I still argue it was more the labor shortage than a shortage of oppressors that enabled peasants to improve their lives. Any wealthy land owner would be desperate for labor and would have no choice but to treat peasants better. Unfortunately, for the peasants, the population rose again eventually and their lives became worse as a result.

    And finally, my bet is on climate change bringing about an economic collapse.

  2. #32
    Senior Member Loki's Avatar
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    Gee, let's look at it another way.
    In an alternative world a dog stood on its hind legs and the story unfolds from there. He started sitting in his cave all day instead of running around the way, dogs , are supposed to.
    He wonders why he has back problems and must use tools to wipe his back side, surely , in his image, it should not be this way.

  3. #33
    Veteran Member bmanmcfly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldGaffer View Post
    So all my links are just "fake news" in your mind? Why bother....
    No, it's not fake because you said it, the issue is, the original source is Malthusian catastrophe. Where he believed that the earth was essentially AT the earths carrying capacity back around 200 years ago.

    Catastrophe can happen, but it would be like a super volcano blocking out most of the sun for a decade... Not because there's not enough resources on the planet and society falls apart.

    That can happen with rabbits where un restrained they would hump and eat until grass was extinct...

  4. #34
    Veteran Member bmanmcfly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Babba View Post
    Well, either way it was ultimately a good thing for the peasants who survived. And while the upper economic class was affected, the peasants were much more affected because of their living conditions. So many, many more peasants died than the upper class. So, I still argue it was more the labor shortage than a shortage of oppressors that enabled peasants to improve their lives. Any wealthy land owner would be desperate for labor and would have no choice but to treat peasants better. Unfortunately, for the peasants, the population rose again eventually and their lives became worse as a result.

    And finally, my bet is on climate change bringing about an economic collapse.
    Probably some of both... There's going to be a degree of speculation either way.

    It's far more likely that the EU market will collapse, the mentality that by bringing in millions of migrants they can spread out the debt load across a wider number of people and the system could be sustained. The thing is the people they brought in are actually an increased cost, not something to offset costs. So, adding extra strained on an already overstrained economy.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmanmcfly View Post
    Probably some of both... There's going to be a degree of speculation either way.

    It's far more likely that the EU market will collapse, the mentality that by bringing in millions of migrants they can spread out the debt load across a wider number of people and the system could be sustained. The thing is the people they brought in are actually an increased cost, not something to offset costs. So, adding extra strained on an already overstrained economy.
    Keeping poor people poor is a not a good long-term strategy in a world where we can't keep people separated anymore. Oceans and long distances on land used to do it. Not anymore. You think walls will work. They won't. Adam Smith said so himself. The seminal book on capitalism wasn't called Wealth within a Nation.
    Thanks from Babba, Dittohead not! and Ian Jeffrey

  6. #36
    Southern Strategy Liberal OldGaffer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmanmcfly View Post
    No, it's not fake because you said it, the issue is, the original source is Malthusian catastrophe. Where he believed that the earth was essentially AT the earths carrying capacity back around 200 years ago.

    Catastrophe can happen, but it would be like a super volcano blocking out most of the sun for a decade... Not because there's not enough resources on the planet and society falls apart.

    That can happen with rabbits where un restrained they would hump and eat until grass was extinct...
    No, the links were to climate change events and how they are destroying the viability of the African continent to support life, sorry you didn't bother to even read them.

  7. #37
    Veteran Member bmanmcfly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasselas View Post
    Keeping poor people poor is a not a good long-term strategy in a world where we can't keep people separated anymore. Oceans and long distances on land used to do it. Not anymore. You think walls will work. They won't. Adam Smith said so himself. The seminal book on capitalism wasn't called Wealth within a Nation.
    Sure, but making yourself poor so that everyone is on the same level doesn't help anyone either.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmanmcfly View Post
    Sure, but making yourself poor so that everyone is on the same level doesn't help anyone either.
    No one is suggesting we do that.

  9. #39
    Veteran Member bmanmcfly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasselas View Post
    No one is suggesting we do that.
    Only because most don't tend to think that far ahead.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmanmcfly View Post
    Only because most don't tend to think that far ahead.
    Or you're creating straw men for your own convenience.

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