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Thread: Ötzi the Iceman Was a Heart Attack Waiting to Happen

  1. #11
    Radical Centrist BigLeRoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puzzling Evidence View Post
    Yup. The main reasons that people live much longer are:

    1 clean drinking water.

    2 antibiotics.

    No one died of old age at 50.
    Pretty good, but I would say better sanitation in general, not just clean drinking water. Having flush toilets and sewers to carry all the shit away was a decided advance in public health. Add vaccinations into the mix, along with antibiotics. And better overall nutrition, and of course many have TOO much nutrition, and the wrong kinds of nutrition, so today we have 'diseases of affluence' rather than 'diseases of deprivation'----except in places like sub-Saharan Africa.

  2. #12
    SPOCK! Puzzling Evidence's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigLeRoy View Post
    Pretty good, but I would say better sanitation in general, not just clean drinking water. Having flush toilets and sewers to carry all the shit away was a decided advance in public health. Add vaccinations into the mix, along with antibiotics. And better overall nutrition, and of course many have TOO much nutrition, and the wrong kinds of nutrition, so today we have 'diseases of affluence' rather than 'diseases of deprivation'----except in places like sub-Saharan Africa.
    There is much worse nutrition today due to things like high-fructose corn syrup, poorly fed animals, food aditives, trans fats and much much more.

  3. #13
    Spock of Vulcan Ian Jeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puzzling Evidence View Post
    Yup. The main reasons that people live much longer are:

    1 clean drinking water.

    2 antibiotics.

    No one died of old age at 50.
    Back then I would imagine few people, if any, lived as long as 50.
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    SPOCK! Puzzling Evidence's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Jeffrey View Post
    Back then I would imagine few people, if any, lived as long as 50.
    You did not read what I wrote. People died of a lot of stuff, like diseases and being eaten. No one lived to be too old to fight, work or escape a predator. They did not live long enough to die of old age.

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    Spock of Vulcan Ian Jeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puzzling Evidence View Post
    You did not read what I wrote. People died of a lot of stuff, like diseases and being eaten. No one lived to be too old to fight, work or escape a predator. They did not live long enough to die of old age.
    I did read what you wrote. I was fundamentally agreeing with, or at least that was my intent.

  6. #16
    Radical Centrist BigLeRoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puzzling Evidence View Post
    There is much worse nutrition today due to things like high-fructose corn syrup, poorly fed animals, food aditives, trans fats and much much more.
    I understand what you're saying, but 200 years ago, MANY people suffered from malnutrition, in the sense that they were not getting ENOUGH to eat, and so experienced various vitamin deficiencies, which can cause all manner of health problems.....
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  7. #17
    Radical Centrist BigLeRoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puzzling Evidence View Post
    There is much worse nutrition today due to things like high-fructose corn syrup, poorly fed animals, food aditives, trans fats and much much more.
    And, by the way, I was alluding to all this when I wrote that many people were getting the WRONG kinds of nutrition. Yes, high-fructose corn syrup is awful stuff and so are trans-fats.
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  8. #18
    Radical Centrist BigLeRoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puzzling Evidence View Post
    You did not read what I wrote. People died of a lot of stuff, like diseases and being eaten. No one lived to be too old to fight, work or escape a predator. They did not live long enough to die of old age.
    I am wondering what period of time you are talking about. Rarely if ever did average human life expectancy ever get much beyond 40 years of age until you begin to approach the early 20th century, which is when we finally began to see some gains from all those advances in sanitation, vaccinations, and access to clean water, begin to have their effect. But in almost every human society, there would always be some fortunate humans who lived to RIPE old ages, until they were indeed far too old to fight or work. And if we are talking about recorded history, humans had little to worry about from predators, except of the microscopic kind. Usually, those old people would be venerated and cared for, as a repository of wisdom and tribal knowledge. Some of them might indeed live to be 80, and in VERY rare cases, you might even see someone live into their 90's. But that would be well outside the norm, several standard deviations away from the mean.

  9. #19
    Senior Member libertariat720's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigLeRoy View Post
    I am wondering what period of time you are talking about. Rarely if ever did average human life expectancy ever get much beyond 40 years of age until you begin to approach the early 20th century, which is when we finally began to see some gains from all those advances in sanitation, vaccinations, and access to clean water, begin to have their effect. But in almost every human society, there would always be some fortunate humans who lived to RIPE old ages, until they were indeed far too old to fight or work. And if we are talking about recorded history, humans had little to worry about from predators, except of the microscopic kind. Usually, those old people would be venerated and cared for, as a repository of wisdom and tribal knowledge. Some of them might indeed live to be 80, and in VERY rare cases, you might even see someone live into their 90's. But that would be well outside the norm, several standard deviations away from the mean.
    Lifespan also has a lot to do with genetics. I'm sure there were "elders" in their 80's in the caveman days, but they were probably looked upon as wizards or saints.

    Even now, by the time your 60, the majority of Americans are on some sort of blood pressure, cholesterol, heart medication. Modern technology is needed to live.

    Also, in terms of raising families and whether you are contributing to, or being a burden on the tribe, keep in mind that when you are a 50 year old caveman you are already a grandparent, possibly great-grandparent.
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  10. #20
    Radical Centrist BigLeRoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by libertariat720 View Post
    Lifespan also has a lot to do with genetics. I'm sure there were "elders" in their 80's in the caveman days, but they were probably looked upon as wizards or saints.

    Even now, by the time your 60, the majority of Americans are on some sort of blood pressure, cholesterol, heart medication. Modern technology is needed to live.

    Also, in terms of raising families and whether you are contributing to, or being a burden on the tribe, keep in mind that when you are a 50 year old caveman you are already a grandparent, possibly great-grandparent.
    Agree with all of this. About half a decade ago, Scientific American published this very interesting article on "The Evolution of Grandparents", suggesting that this really first occurred among Upper Paleolithic modern humans. I don't know if this will give you full access to the article, but if it does, it is a very interesting read:

    https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...ts-2012-12-07/

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