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Thread: A Simple Question for Those Who Oppose Same Sex Marriage

  1. #1
    Voice of Reason ProgressivePatriot's Avatar
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    Exclamation A Simple Question for Those Who Oppose Same Sex Marriage

    I have a simple question for those who oppose same sex marriage on the grounds that it is detrimental to children -which will come at the end of this post. But first allow me to present a senerio that is quite common.

    The setting: A time and place where same sex marriage is not possible and only married couples can adopt .

    The people: Kathy is a 29 year old divorced woman with two year old twins- a boy named Brandon and a girl named Britany . After the birth of the children, the husband , Jack, became abusive and angry which resulted in Kathy filing for divorce. Jack, over the last year and a half has had minimal contact with the children by his choice, and has had to be hauled into court several time for not paying child support

    Kathy has always felt that she was more attracted to women than men but has suppressed those feelings because of taboos and social pressures, and wanting to avoid disapproval of friends and family . However, public opinion and social norms are changing and she is ready to embrace her feelings, be who she really is, and come out as a Lesbian.

    Soon after her divorce, Kathy meets Angela, a Lesbian and they hit it off. The children like her and she is crazy about them. Within 6 months Angela moves in with Kathy in the home that Kathy owns exclusively as a result of the divorce settlement. In time, it becomes clear that the children are bonding with Angela and she is very involved with them

    A few years go by, the children are now in school and doing well. They are clearly well adjusted and have many friends. Then the unthinkable happens. Kathy is killed in an auto accident. Social Services at the hospital notifies Child Protective Services (CPS) that there are children living with an unrelated person who is not their legal guardian and investigates. The first thing that they do is to contact the father who has moved some distance away and is with another woman. They find out that the woman does not want kids and the father's interest is tepid at best. They consider charging him with abandonment but determine that placing the children with him might be putting them at risk of abuse or neglect because of the attitudes of the father and his girlfriend.

    The next step is for CPS is to explore relatives on both sided of the family who might be able and willing to take the children but Kathy had not been close with any of them some ostracized her for living with a woman. None are interested in taking in the children.

    Meanwhile, Angela and the children are understandably devastated by the loss of Kathy . Compounding the grief is children's fear that they will be taken away from Angela and sent off to live with people who they don't know, and away from their friends and school. And of course Angela is fearful of loosing the children.

    To be sure CPS could recommend to the court that Angela be given custody but there is no guarantee that they will, or that the court would follow that recommendation. And, if a relative later came forward and asked to be considered as the guardian, or if the father objected, Angela could loose custody at any time. It is also plausible that CPS would recommend placement into foster care. Remember, Angela has no rights!!

    Now children do have rights, and these children are old enough- now 7- so express their wishes. However, that does not mean that their rights and wishes will be respected by the legal system and the adults who have power over them. The court might order a best interest analysis which would include a lengthy process of evaluating the degree of bonding between Angela and the children . But even if resolved in their favor, they will have already suffered unnecessary trauma and will bear those scars for the rest of their lives.

    Of course, all of this could have been avoided if Kathy and Angela could have been married so that Angela could adopt the children as a second parent. ( Although it might be necessary to terminate the parental rights of the father first- which should not be hard given his indifference and negligence. He might even relinquish those rights voluntarily and thus be off the hook for child support)

    So now, my question is : Can anyone say that the best interest of Brandon and Britany were served in a system where Kathy and Angela COULD NOT GET MARRIED? Yes or No, and why
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    Veteran Member John T Ford's Avatar
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    I don't think anyone in their right mind would say that the children's best interest was served in this case.

    I have no problem with some sort of civil union to give people equal rights under the law.

    My issue is with calling it marriage.

    It is not.

    To say so would be to redefine the term marriage.
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    Voice of Reason ProgressivePatriot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John T Ford View Post
    I don't think anyone in their right mind would say that the children's best interest was served in this case.

    I have no problem with some sort of civil union to give people equal rights under the law.

    My issue is with calling it marriage.

    It is not.

    To say so would be to redefine the term marriage.
    Oh please John! Not that same meme again. I remember you!

    Marriage has been redefined many times. It was redefined when women became equal partners in the union and not property. It was redefined when marriage was no longer between two people of the same race. Institution must evolve to survive. Stagnation is death.

    Civil unions never worked . They were not equality. In my fictitious scenario, the couple was required to be married in order to adopt. That is actually a reality in some places. Why are you so threatened by opening up marriage to others and broadening the base of the institution so as to promote it's survival.??
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    Council Member Djinn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John T Ford View Post
    ... To say so would be to redefine the term marriage.
    Marriage has been redefined many times in the past, and civilization survived. It'll survive this time too.
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  5. #5
    Veteran Member Pragmatist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John T Ford View Post
    I don't think anyone in their right mind would say that the children's best interest was served in this case.

    I have no problem with some sort of civil union to give people equal rights under the law.

    My issue is with calling it marriage.

    It is not.

    To say so would be to redefine the term marriage.
    Then consider it redefined because it now includes same sex marriages whether you like the idea or not.
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    Junior Member zaangalewa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ProgressivePatriot View Post
    I have a simple question for those who oppose same sex marriage on the grounds that it is detrimental to children -which will come at the end of this post. But first allow me to present a senerio that is quite common.

    The setting: A time and place where same sex marriage is not possible and only married couples can adopt .

    The people: Kathy is a 29 year old divorced woman with two year old twins- a boy named Brandon and a girl named Britany . After the birth of the children, the husband , Jack, became abusive and angry which resulted in Kathy filing for divorce. Jack, over the last year and a half has had minimal contact with the children by his choice, and has had to be hauled into court several time for not paying child support

    Kathy has always felt that she was more attracted to women than men but has suppressed those feelings because of taboos and social pressures, and wanting to avoid disapproval of friends and family . However, public opinion and social norms are changing and she is ready to embrace her feelings, be who she really is, and come out as a Lesbian.

    Soon after her divorce, Kathy meets Angela, a Lesbian and they hit it off. The children like her and she is crazy about them. Within 6 months Angela moves in with Kathy in the home that Kathy owns exclusively as a result of the divorce settlement. In time, it becomes clear that the children are bonding with Angela and she is very involved with them

    A few years go by, the children are now in school and doing well. They are clearly well adjusted and have many friends. Then the unthinkable happens. Kathy is killed in an auto accident. Social Services at the hospital notifies Child Protective Services (CPS) that there are children living with an unrelated person who is not their legal guardian and investigates. The first thing that they do is to contact the father who has moved some distance away and is with another woman. They find out that the woman does not want kids and the father's interest is tepid at best. They consider charging him with abandonment but determine that placing the children with him might be putting them at risk of abuse or neglect because of the attitudes of the father and his girlfriend.

    The next step is for CPS is to explore relatives on both sided of the family who might be able and willing to take the children but Kathy had not been close with any of them some ostracized her for living with a woman. None are interested in taking in the children.

    Meanwhile, Angela and the children are understandably devastated by the loss of Kathy . Compounding the grief is children's fear that they will be taken away from Angela and sent off to live with people who they don't know, and away from their friends and school. And of course Angela is fearful of loosing the children.

    To be sure CPS could recommend to the court that Angela be given custody but there is no guarantee that they will, or that the court would follow that recommendation. And, if a relative later came forward and asked to be considered as the guardian, or if the father objected, Angela could loose custody at any time. It is also plausible that CPS would recommend placement into foster care. Remember, Angela has no rights!!

    Now children do have rights, and these children are old enough- now 7- so express their wishes. However, that does not mean that their rights and wishes will be respected by the legal system and the adults who have power over them. The court might order a best interest analysis which would include a lengthy process of evaluating the degree of bonding between Angela and the children . But even if resolved in their favor, they will have already suffered unnecessary trauma and will bear those scars for the rest of their lives.

    Of course, all of this could have been avoided if Kathy and Angela could have been married so that Angela could adopt the children as a second parent. ( Although it might be necessary to terminate the parental rights of the father first- which should not be hard given his indifference and negligence. He might even relinquish those rights voluntarily and thus be off the hook for child support)

    So now, my question is : Can anyone say that the best interest of Brandon and Britany were served in a system where Kathy and Angela COULD NOT GET MARRIED? Yes or No, and why
    I don't understand the full problems - but what about this questions: Where and when will learn Brandon and Britany something about the normal behavior of a husband and father of children? Which social models will they be able to use when they will have children on their own? What will they learn? Men are good for copulation and nothing else?

    Last edited by zaangalewa; 18th November 2017 at 10:29 AM.

  7. #7
    Junior Member zaangalewa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Djinn View Post
    Marriage has been redefined many times in the past ...
    Example? Marriage was always in history the foundation of a family from a man and a woman.

    Last edited by zaangalewa; 18th November 2017 at 10:43 AM.
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  8. #8
    the "good" prag pragmatic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zaangalewa View Post
    Example? Marriage was always in history the foundation of a family from a man and a woman.
    If the OP is a true story it sounds like a tragic loss for the kids. Do hope they end up with the "angela" player.

    Never had an issue with civil unions. As i recall that was the goal of the movement at one point. Goal posts moved.

    Would have preferred the word (and institution) of "marriage" be reserved for one man and one woman.


    But that isn't the way it turned out. No biggie, i'll survive it.
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    Voice of Reason ProgressivePatriot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zaangalewa View Post
    I don't understand the full problems - but what about this questions: Where and when will learn Brandon and Britany something about the normal behavior of a husband and father of children? Which social models will they be able to use when they will have children on their own? What will they learn? Men are good for copulation and nothing else?
    You don't understand what the problem is? Well, I explained it in great detail so I don't know how else to help you. As far as male role models go, the two moms are not the only people in the lives of these children. They will have plenty of exposure to both genders. In addition, traditional gender roles are much less important now, with men and women doing many of the same things.

    There is a mountain of research on this issue and the consensus is that children of same sex parents do as well as any and that there are many more important aspect of parenting. It is all out there for anyone who is interested.

    Now, let me ask you this.....even if a child were at some disadvantage not having a mother and a father, would it be better for the children like the ones in my story becoming a ward of the state? Think about it.
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  10. #10
    the "good" prag pragmatic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ProgressivePatriot View Post
    You don't understand what the problem is? Well, I explained it in great detail so I don't know how else to help you. As far as male role models go, the two moms are not the only people in the lives of these children. They will have plenty of exposure to both genders. In addition, traditional gender roles are much less important now, with men and women doing many of the same things.

    There is a mountain of research on this issue and the consensus is that children of same sex parents do as well as any and that there are many more important aspect of parenting. It is all out there for anyone who is interested.

    Now, let me ask you this.....even if a child were at some disadvantage not having a mother and a father, would it be better for the children like the ones in my story becoming a ward of the state? Think about it.

    Don't believe anyone has suggested it would be.

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