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Thread: Consent to Sex Whilst Drunk

  1. #301
    Veteran Member Madeline's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigLeRoy View Post
    Obviously, I had mis-remembered some of the details. But it seems that it is more than a 'rumor' that she was 'laughing and giggling'. This is from your link above:

    Defense attorneys are seeking a new trial for a 21-year-old Colorado man convicted of forcibly raping a 13-year-old girl after police accessed cellphone video that contradicts her claim that she was pinned down and gang raped in December 2016.

    Public defender Nathan Ojanan filed a motion Friday seeking a new trial for Jacolby Hasan Williams. It says the video records the girl's voice as she "appears to be laughing and giggling and engaging in consensual sexual acts."

    It flatly states that the cellphone video CONTRADICTS her claims about the incident.....
    I am so confused.

  2. #302
    ~Standing My Ground~ Sassy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigLeRoy View Post
    Obviously, I had mis-remembered some of the details. But it seems that it is more than a 'rumor' that she was 'laughing and giggling'. This is from your link above:

    Defense attorneys are seeking a new trial for a 21-year-old Colorado man convicted of forcibly raping a 13-year-old girl after police accessed cellphone video that contradicts her claim that she was pinned down and gang raped in December 2016.

    Public defender Nathan Ojanan filed a motion Friday seeking a new trial for Jacolby Hasan Williams. It says the video records the girl's voice as she "appears to be laughing and giggling and engaging in consensual sexual acts."

    It flatly states that the cellphone video CONTRADICTS her claims about the incident.....
    By 'it' you mean the defense attorney. We haven't heard the tape, thus, it is a rumor.

  3. #303
    Veteran Member Madeline's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sassy View Post
    By 'it' you mean the defense attorney. We haven't heard the tape, thus, it is a rumor.
    Well, this is a complex question. The case resulted in a conviction, and evidentially, "forcible rape of a child" is a different law in this state from statutory rape.

    But, unless the prosecutor had this tape and concealed it, this is not a Brady violation.

    It's not a mistake in how the judge ran the trial.

    Etc.

    It's a claim of actual innocence to the charge he was convicted on, even though he can't beat a lesser charge.

    I'm not sure this man will get a new trial. Actual innocence is not a strong case on appeal.

    Due process requires a fair trial, which this man doesn't deny he received. It does not require perfect results, factually.
    Last edited by Madeline; 9th July 2018 at 10:02 AM.

  4. #304
    Radical Centrist BigLeRoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sassy View Post
    By 'it' you mean the defense attorney. We haven't heard the tape, thus, it is a rumor.
    Well, the way the story was written, it sounded like the police were in agreement with the defense attorney that the cellphone video contradicted the girl's story. But maybe that was just the way the reporter wrote the story....But it says the "police accessed cellphone video that contradicts her claim that she was pinned down and gang raped". The description of her as "laughing and giggling and engaging in consensual sexual acts" does come from the defense attorney.....If indeed the POLICE are saying the video contradicts the girl's story, I would not call it a rumor----but agree we need more info.
    Thanks from Madeline

  5. #305
    Veteran Member Dr Sampson Simpson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madeline View Post
    The Fifth Estate, a Canadian documentary series, has a 2015 episode about sexual assault on campus called "School of Secrets". The subject is interesting, and whilst I don't know any Canadian law, the presenters make the claim/assumption that consent given whilst drunk is invalid.

    The episode dives deep into the alleged assaults committed by a Russian student, who states that the laws are different in his country and he wasn't aware of the differences.

    Also, could be true. I haven't tried to find out.

    My question is, what SHOULD the law be? It bothers me that drunk driving is a crime that occurs in the bar, when the driver chooses to become intoxicated, as well as behind the wheel.

    Why are we imposing criminal liability for intentional acts associated with driving, but denying that same capacity to form intent associated with sexual behavior?

    Obviously, I am excluding people rendered unconscious, or poisoned by adulterated liquor, or minors who are "force fed" booze to render them pliable by adults, etc.

    Sally and her girlfriends plan a night out, go clubbing, Sally gets intoxicated by drinking 7 whiskey sours, leaves with Guy She Was Dancing With, they have sex at his house, she is appalled in the morning.

    Is this a crime? Should it be? Is it any different if Dancing Guy is also intoxicated?

    Whaca think?
    No, I don't think that should be a crime if she was conscious and a willing participant. You can't often tell if a person is blacked out drunk, unless of course they are really, really obviously trashed and barely conscious. But its not often obvious if someone won't remember or out of their mind. Some people handle being really drunk well. What if the guy is drunk as well? It's effecting his judgement so he may not be able to know she was overly inebriated.

    I had a chance once for a one night stand but didn't go through with it for a couple reasons, one was the woman suddenly was really drunk and slurring, and then there was the fact she said to her self "hmm, the smart guy or the tall guy" like she was thinking of going home with another guy she was talking to when I went to the bathroom. Stupid brain getting in the way of my penis once again
    Last edited by Dr Sampson Simpson; 9th July 2018 at 11:12 AM.
    Thanks from Madeline

  6. #306
    Radical Centrist BigLeRoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Sampson Simpson View Post
    No, I don't think that should be a crime if she was conscious and a willing participant. You can't often tell if a person is blacked out drunk, unless of course they are really, really obviously trashed and barely conscious. But its not often obvious if someone won't remember or out of their mind. Some people handle being really drunk well. What if the guy is drunk as well? It's effecting his judgement so he may not be able to know she was overly inebriated.

    I had a chance once for a one night stand but didn't go through with it for a couple reasons, one was the woman suddenly was really drunk and slurring, and then there was the fact she said to her self "hmm, the smart guy or the tall guy" like she was thinking of going home with another guy she was talking to when I went to the bathroom. Stupid brain getting in the way of my penis once again
    Heh. When I was in my early 20's, I was built like a football player back in those days. [Well, I WAS a football player in high school, and kept myself in very good shape at least through my mid-20's, before all my beer drinking started to get to me, heh.] And I had this T-shirt that said: I'm With Stupid. Of course, a LOT of people had a T-Shirt that said that. But on MY T-shirt, the arrow was pointing straight DOWN!

    Well. You'd be amazed at how many young ladies wanted to meet Mr. Stupid.

    But yeah, I knew a LOT of guys who would get drunk, and end up going home with some girl, and would wake up in bed the next morning, and be HORRIFIED at what they had dragged home with them. The eyes don't function as well at closing time. Men have regrets, too......
    Thanks from bajisima and Madeline

  7. #307
    Veteran Member bajisima's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigLeRoy View Post
    Heh. When I was in my early 20's, I was built like a football player back in those days. [Well, I WAS a football player in high school, and kept myself in very good shape at least through my mid-20's, before all my beer drinking started to get to me, heh.] And I had this T-shirt that said: I'm With Stupid. Of course, a LOT of people had a T-Shirt that said that. But on MY T-shirt, the arrow was pointing straight DOWN!

    Well. You'd be amazed at how many young ladies wanted to meet Mr. Stupid.

    But yeah, I knew a LOT of guys who would get drunk, and end up going home with some girl, and would wake up in bed the next morning, and be HORRIFIED at what they had dragged home with them. The eyes don't function as well at closing time. Men have regrets, too......
    Beer goggles?
    Thanks from Madeline, BigLeRoy and HCProf

  8. #308
    Veteran Member Isalexi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madeline View Post
    I don't think we know, because this is likely the most underreported type of sex crime. I also think women offend differently than men, and that the crimes they commit cause different harms.

    I can always learn, and I have no doubt you could teach me a lot. But I get very frustrated by the attitude that sexually assaulted children don't matter if the offender is female.

    Ours is not the more moral, upstanding gender. We get a fair share of the world's fuckweasels.
    Actually rape is the most underreported because women are not believed and shamed.
    Who ever said sexually assaulted children donít matter if their females? Women who sexually assaulted or punished much harsher than men. The women that we read about all have very harsh sentences. It is sad that anyone is sexually assaulted but to say that women do it as much is u true. In all my years of teaching sex education and reading private journals written to me I have picked up sexual abuse and every single one of them was by a man . To make them comparable in my opinion is disingenuous. Anyone sexually assaulted by anyone is equally as bad

  9. #309
    Radical Centrist BigLeRoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isalexi View Post
    Actually rape is the most underreported because women are not believed and shamed.
    Who ever said sexually assaulted children don’t matter if their females? Women who sexually assaulted or punished much harsher than men. The women that we read about all have very harsh sentences. It is sad that anyone is sexually assaulted but to say that women do it as much is u true. In all my years of teaching sex education and reading private journals written to me I have picked up sexual abuse and every single one of them was by a man . To make them comparable in my opinion is disingenuous. Anyone sexually assaulted by anyone is equally as bad
    Wait, what? That's NONSENSE! Many of these female teachers who have been found guilty of assaulting male students have not done ANY PRISON TIME WHATSOEVER!! You can scroll through this 'rogue's gallery' of offenders and see for yourself what 'punishments' they have gotten! In many cases, it was just probation and the loss of their teaching licenses.

    40 Female School Teachers Arrested For Sleeping With Students

    For example, the very first case, the very famous case of Debra Lafave: In 2005, Lafave pled guilty to two counts of lewd and lascivious battery of a minor, which resulted in her serving no real jail time, as she was sentenced to three years of house arrest and seven years of formal probation.

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