Page 6 of 7 FirstFirst ... 4567 LastLast
Results 51 to 60 of 62
Thanks Tree13Thanks

Thread: Looks Like the M-16 and SAW Are on the Way Out

  1. #51
    Southern Strategy Liberal OldGaffer's Avatar
    Joined
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    35,727
    Thanks
    37832

    From
    Nashville, TN
    Quote Originally Posted by THOR View Post
    Two accurately placed 9's beat one .45 Multiple hits create more body trauma.
    Good to know, never know when I might need to create body trauma with multiple hits.

  2. #52
    Southern Strategy Liberal OldGaffer's Avatar
    Joined
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    35,727
    Thanks
    37832

    From
    Nashville, TN
    Sawed off shotgun, best defense ever for the home...all the body trauma you could ever want...

  3. #53
    Veteran Member
    Joined
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    20,480
    Thanks
    3995

    Quote Originally Posted by OldGaffer View Post
    Sawed off shotgun, best defense ever for the home...all the body trauma you could ever want...
    A regular barrel works just as well.
    Thanks from Hollywood

  4. #54
    Veteran Member Dragonfly5's Avatar
    Joined
    May 2007
    Posts
    13,179
    Thanks
    10530

    From
    Houston, Texas
    Quote Originally Posted by Hollywood View Post
    When I got my CCL in Missouri I had a Ruger P-frame 9mm pistol with the extended mag, held 17 rounds as i recall. But in Missouri you are required to keep your pistol concealed and lugging that bif pistol around was a pain in the ass.
    I got rid of it and got a .380 semi-automatic. MUCH easier to conceal and carry. I do load it with 90 grain Hydra-Shok rounds.
    I believe that if you put the bullet in the right place the caliber does not much matter.
    I know what you mean. I have two main carry pistols. One is my Ruger LCP. It is a good 380 but it is very hard to be accurate with it beyond a few feet. I also have a Berreta 25 ACP that hold's 9 shells and fits in the palm of my hand. I am fairly accurate with this pistol, mainly I think because it is single-action. I know it is only a 25 ACP but I imagine 9 shots at 6" away will will the fight.

  5. #55
    Established Member Redwood's Avatar
    Joined
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    6,781
    Thanks
    4348

    From
    Ohio
    Quote Originally Posted by Hollywood View Post
    Why don't we just buy a shit-load of AK-47's from our new pal Putin?
    The M-14 I was issued by the Marines in 1968 was a 7.62mm round and it worked just fine.
    Well, the AK 47 isn't even Russia's main combat rifle. It's cheap. Loose tolerances help it to function even if not clean, but, it's not accurate beyond a couple hundred yards.. and.. it's rather heavy for what it is. In Nam.... a patrol could be trudging through steamy hot jungle for days,with packs. Often you could not SEE 100 yd any direction so....a rifle able to hit at 500 m ...just wasn't that handy.

    Now that we use M4's a lot... we're in a War where M14's CAN do well. We even " reactivated" some and started using SR25 ( M-111?) as a designated marksman a semi auto .308, a Stoner design so....troops used to M-16,M-4 adapt.

    The US is wed to the Stoner style and the idea of 5.56 annd .308 as the primary ammo. HOWEVER..... I could see Some NEW style (bullpup) in maybe 6.8 mm. I also could see the FN P 90 getting consideration in some cases. What MIGHT happen is you keep the MAIN US Army as is but into new stuff for maybe the Marines or the Rangers, or Airborne.

    I REALLY like the format of that P 90, real ergonomic and NO MAG hanging out the bottom. The usual bottom mag can be awkward if fighting prone, it's what can snag in thick brush.

    I could see units where squads use ATV's to tote a lot of what a solder carries on his back. Picture....a squad where nobody is hauling a 60 lb pack... maybe 20-25 lb, and a rather light weapon.

    The AMMO the P 90 uses has more RANGE than 9 mm, but it's a rather SMALL bullet. You can HIT the bad guys but....maybe do not have the "knockdown" for some situations.

    Picture..... you SCALE UP the P90. the AMMO is a NEW round... maybe between a 35 cal and 40 cal, but a bit longer than the pistol round. I want something that has TWO options..... a heavier subsonic round that can be SILENCED... but... another round that's got more velocity/range, can act like an assault rifle. I could see a Commando 40 being VERY useful for various Spec Ops units.
    It ALSO may turn out quite handy on a broader scope.

    There's a bit of a conflict. Logistics, bang for the buck....Ideally we go with a rather narrow group of weapons, ammo. However....That's like the upside of a small toolbox. Sometimes you wish you had what you do NOT have.

    What's been our WARS lately? Rather "alien" environments/cultures. We fought in swamps and jungles, arid deserts and urban clutter and the mountains and open spaces. We tended to be equipped for the "last war". Maybe the common factor is....places where the WEATHER/heat is extreme. So....if your guys are carrying a LOT of stuff and its 100F heat? We had conflicts where shootouts were rather CLOSE in... and others where the enemy may be at 400m or so.

    We NEED....a broad and adaptable set of options. In SOME cases.... the 12 ga Shotgun with a drum mag....is damn good as is a submachine gun, a P90. In OTHER cases...you want snipers with 338 Lapua or a 50 cal Barret.

    So.....Rather than a WWII type environment in Europe.... it seems we now get into some rather STRANGE places with....very strange enemies. We WANT the right tools.
    Thanks from Hollywood

  6. #56
    Veteran Member Moorhuhn Wanted Champion Hollywood's Avatar
    Joined
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    64,253
    Thanks
    29923

    From
    Memphis, Tn.
    Quote Originally Posted by OldGaffer View Post
    Sawed off shotgun, best defense ever for the home...all the body trauma you could ever want...
    Illegal to make or possess a sawed off shotgun.

  7. #57
    Veteran Member Moorhuhn Wanted Champion Hollywood's Avatar
    Joined
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    64,253
    Thanks
    29923

    From
    Memphis, Tn.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonfly5 View Post
    I know what you mean. I have two main carry pistols. One is my Ruger LCP. It is a good 380 but it is very hard to be accurate with it beyond a few feet. I also have a Berreta 25 ACP that hold's 9 shells and fits in the palm of my hand. I am fairly accurate with this pistol, mainly I think because it is single-action. I know it is only a 25 ACP but I imagine 9 shots at 6" away will will the fight.
    I don't worry too much about range. If a person is close enough to me to present an immediate danger to my life and limb then he's in range of my .380.

  8. #58
    Established Member Redwood's Avatar
    Joined
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    6,781
    Thanks
    4348

    From
    Ohio
    Quote Originally Posted by OlGuy View Post
    Best thing of the M14 over the M1 was the captured spring pin holder, no more losing pins.
    Well.....the M-1 Garand's CLIP was placed so you could not DO a straight scope. You'd need to offset. Having a weapon/ammo good to 800 m or more is nice but, if your EYEBALL is more about 300 M or less?

    In the past 40-50 yrs.....Guns, Ammo have evolved. There's NOW stuff not available in the 50's,60's. Whatever the concept, short range,mid,long, there's stuff beyond the basic NATO rounds and there's weapons beyond Viet Nam era.
    Trend to compact/ergonomic (bullpup) to ammo that's VERY good for a role ( think .338 Lapua Sniper rifles). We fought in NASTY envioronments..... HOT, very damp or very dry....Mountains.....and we fought folks NOT inclined to quit. If it's 100 F.. you'd rather not be trudging with a 60 lb pack.

    Our TRENDS are to be more mobile, more versatile, more quick to deploy ANY PLACE.

  9. #59
    olguy OlGuy's Avatar
    Joined
    May 2016
    Posts
    1,829
    Thanks
    359

    From
    california
    Quote Originally Posted by Redwood View Post
    Well.....the M-1 Garand's CLIP was placed so you could not DO a straight scope. You'd need to offset. Having a weapon/ammo good to 800 m or more is nice but, if your EYEBALL is more about 300 M or less?

    In the past 40-50 yrs.....Guns, Ammo have evolved. There's NOW stuff not available in the 50's,60's. Whatever the concept, short range,mid,long, there's stuff beyond the basic NATO rounds and there's weapons beyond Viet Nam era.
    Trend to compact/ergonomic (bullpup) to ammo that's VERY good for a role ( think .338 Lapua Sniper rifles). We fought in NASTY envioronments..... HOT, very damp or very dry....Mountains.....and we fought folks NOT inclined to quit. If it's 100 F.. you'd rather not be trudging with a 60 lb pack.

    Our TRENDS are to be more mobile, more versatile, more quick to deploy ANY PLACE.
    Everything can change though. I saw a report recently, can't remember where, that military planners were thinking that new body armor could not be penetrated by anything short of a .308. I can't imagine that on full auto or how tactics would have to adapt to .308 rifles. May be time to think about developing lasers or something.

  10. #60
    Veteran Member
    Joined
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    20,480
    Thanks
    3995

    Quote Originally Posted by Redwood View Post
    Well, the AK 47 isn't even Russia's main combat rifle. It's cheap. Loose tolerances help it to function even if not clean, but, it's not accurate beyond a couple hundred yards.. and.. it's rather heavy for what it is. In Nam.... a patrol could be trudging through steamy hot jungle for days,with packs. Often you could not SEE 100 yd any direction so....a rifle able to hit at 500 m ...just wasn't that handy.

    Now that we use M4's a lot... we're in a War where M14's CAN do well. We even " reactivated" some and started using SR25 ( M-111?) as a designated marksman a semi auto .308, a Stoner design so....troops used to M-16,M-4 adapt.

    The US is wed to the Stoner style and the idea of 5.56 annd .308 as the primary ammo. HOWEVER..... I could see Some NEW style (bullpup) in maybe 6.8 mm. I also could see the FN P 90 getting consideration in some cases. What MIGHT happen is you keep the MAIN US Army as is but into new stuff for maybe the Marines or the Rangers, or Airborne.

    I REALLY like the format of that P 90, real ergonomic and NO MAG hanging out the bottom. The usual bottom mag can be awkward if fighting prone, it's what can snag in thick brush.

    I could see units where squads use ATV's to tote a lot of what a solder carries on his back. Picture....a squad where nobody is hauling a 60 lb pack... maybe 20-25 lb, and a rather light weapon.

    The AMMO the P 90 uses has more RANGE than 9 mm, but it's a rather SMALL bullet. You can HIT the bad guys but....maybe do not have the "knockdown" for some situations.

    Picture..... you SCALE UP the P90. the AMMO is a NEW round... maybe between a 35 cal and 40 cal, but a bit longer than the pistol round. I want something that has TWO options..... a heavier subsonic round that can be SILENCED... but... another round that's got more velocity/range, can act like an assault rifle. I could see a Commando 40 being VERY useful for various Spec Ops units.
    It ALSO may turn out quite handy on a broader scope.

    There's a bit of a conflict. Logistics, bang for the buck....Ideally we go with a rather narrow group of weapons, ammo. However....That's like the upside of a small toolbox. Sometimes you wish you had what you do NOT have.

    What's been our WARS lately? Rather "alien" environments/cultures. We fought in swamps and jungles, arid deserts and urban clutter and the mountains and open spaces. We tended to be equipped for the "last war". Maybe the common factor is....places where the WEATHER/heat is extreme. So....if your guys are carrying a LOT of stuff and its 100F heat? We had conflicts where shootouts were rather CLOSE in... and others where the enemy may be at 400m or so.

    We NEED....a broad and adaptable set of options. In SOME cases.... the 12 ga Shotgun with a drum mag....is damn good as is a submachine gun, a P90. In OTHER cases...you want snipers with 338 Lapua or a 50 cal Barret.

    So.....Rather than a WWII type environment in Europe.... it seems we now get into some rather STRANGE places with....very strange enemies. We WANT the right tools.
    There may not be a perfect caliber but there are good compromises. Vietnam has different conditions then M.E. desert. Short barreled M4's loose performance over full length barrels.
    Maybe great in certain situations but the long range shots are more of a problem. 6.8SPC, 6.5 Grendel may be a good compromise. Still need specialized equipment for the special needs.
    Then what about NATO ? Were full length M16's used in Iraq using the heavier bullets? Should that be also available?

    The maximum velocity for the M855 projectile occurred in a 20-inch barrel. This is anticipated since the cartridge was designed specifically for this barrel length. Velocity drops rapidly as the barrel length decreases, especially below 10 inches where the velocity drops below 2,500 fps. M855 bullets traveling below 2,500 fps when impacting a target will not produce a lethal wound channel. http://www.sadefensejournal.com/wp/?p=1093




    http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...-5-20-barrels/

    Long Barrel, or Short? The Effectiveness Trade-Off Between 14.5″ and 20″ Barrels

    Last edited by THOR; 2nd June 2017 at 01:50 PM.

Page 6 of 7 FirstFirst ... 4567 LastLast

Tags for this Thread


Facebook Twitter RSS Feed