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Thread: The Point of No Return: Rolling Thunder In North Vietnam

  1. #21
    Veteran Member TNVolunteer73's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madeline View Post


    The French lost the First Indochina War in Vietnam in 1954, after having fought there for at least a decade. But the French were fighting to maintain their colonial power over Vietnam, and so the lessons they might have passed to the Americans were never heard by our leaders.

    The first 20th century military presence in Vietnam dates to 1900, as most of Americans are unaware just how active we were in SE Asia dating back to the Civil War era. But the REASONS we were in Vietnam relevant to this thread are: the 1949 Chinese Communist Revolution, after the end of WWII in 1946 and the mistrust of the Soviet Union. No US president between 1949 and 1975 ever gave the civil, war in Vietnam the credibility it deserved. It was always about "fighting the spread of communism", whipsawed by fears of both the Soviet Union and Red China, men like Richard Nixon and J. Edgar Hoover thought they were fighting Satan himself and trying to prevent the end of the world. Literally. Which of course, justified in their minds using any tactic imaginable.

    (Both men were deeply involved in the Red Scare manufactured by Joe McCarthy, and neither one ever stopped "hunting communists" among Americans until they died.)

    Rolling Thunder was a massive bombing assault on North Vietnam, which dropped more ordinance than any other bombing mission in world history -- a fact I don't think many Americans appreciate. In 1965, President Lyndon Johnson, having been given the most HAWKISH advice possible and lacking the attention he should have paid, approved the mission as he was focused on Civil Rights and other domestic policies. Johnson was not the most evil US POTUS of the Vietnam War era but ironically he started the conflagration REALLY burning and probably got more people killed than any other POTUS of the Vietnam War era.

    LBJ, unsatisfied with the results of the mission which he been assured would cripple North Vietnam and thereby end the war, LBJ then committed ground troops to support the bombing effort.

    And that was the Point Of No Return.


    The 1968 Presidential race had GOP candidates OPENLY calling for the use of NUCLEAR WEAPONS against North Vietnam. (1964 had seen such remarks made behind the scenes, not for publication, but it was an open secret.)

    Nuclear Weapons & the Vietnam War | Nautilus Institute for Security and Sustainability

    Nixon, who won in 1968, was unwilling to nuke North Vietnam (thank God) but did favor expanding the war and subsequently secretly invaded Laos and Cambodia. No US military strategy expert, then or now, thought the US could win the Vietnam War after 1964, and most did not think it could be won as far back as the end of the Indochina and Korean Wars, in 1954 and 1953, respectively.

    Nixon could not bring himself to consider withdrawing from Vietnam; he could not live with "allowing the communists to win". His emotional problems killed MILLIONS.

    Pride, mistaken beliefs (Johnson was privately convinced the communists had killed JFK), and hubris killed 50,000 American soldiers, maimed another 300,000, saw 744 captured by the North Vietnamese, and another 2,338 MIA who have never been found. On the US side, the misery and horror is hard to overstated; fully 10% of their generation of American men fought in Vietnam, most as draftees. Women my age were their sisters, girlfriends, friends -- and the suffering of those at home is probably hard to overestimate.



    Most historians now agree, Nixon gave a shoot to kill order to the National Guard before they arrived on the campus of Kent State, killing 4 and wounding 9 on May 4, 1970.

    From the POV of the Vietnamese, especially the North Vietnamese, the US was attempting to genocide them and was having a lot of success. We killed 2 civilians for every Viet Cong soldier, and used what amounts to germ warfare to try to defoliate the country to assist in line of sight, etc. Altogether, over 3 million Vietnamese people died as a result of US military aggression, not including South Vietnamese soldiers. Another undisclosed number (most likely in the thousands) were killed by the Viet Cong as they entered South Vietnam after the Fall of Saigon. As we withdrew from South Vietnam in 1975, the US official policy (Gerald Ford) was to abandon EVERY South Vietnamese solider and their families, but the US Ambassador to SV, Graham Martin, defied orders from DC and saved a few thousand such people, who mainly settled in Texas where they have become outstanding US citizens.

    40 years ago: Vietnam War ends with massive airlift - CNN.com

    Graham Martin, 77, Dies - Envoy at Saigon's Fall - NYTimes.com

    Agent Orange's devastating effect on the human body is still not fully admitted to by its manufacturer, Monsanto or by the US government. It is not limited to the brain and nervous system injuries we all have heard of as to American vets. The generations of Vietnamese babies born during its use and after, for decades, include devastating birth defects not seem outside the thalidomide scandal. Babies without arms or legs, or without skin on their whole bodies, etc.

    Babies in Vietnam born with horrific defects 40 years since Agent Orange | Daily Mail Online

    Cancer rates among US Vietnam vets also tend to show, Agent Orange was carcinogenic -- a question no one has been permitted to research, and a claim the VA continues to deny. In fact, the brain and nervous system damage done by Agent Orange are still denied, if that question is measured by the VA's treatment of our vets.

    https://www.publichealth.va.gov/expo...ge/conditions/

    Our Vietnam vets are suffering, and have suffered, the highest rates of suicide, homelessness, mental illness, drug addiction and other horrors related to their combat experiences of any fighting force the US has ever mustered, including those who fought in the US Civil War.

    The US should have been condemned by the world as having used germ warfare in Vietnam, in direct contravention of the Geneva Convention, and Monsanto should be viewed as the MOST EVIL company of the planet, but few Americans understand the scope of what Agent Orange did. That is not an accident; the public here was and remains anxious to leave the grief and misery of war behind in 1975 and by 1980, was preoccupied with Conspicuous Consumption and the Reagan Era.

    Since 1975, 10,000 Vietnamese have been killed by unexploded bombs which later detonated by farmers, etc., dropped by the US and still killing the Vietnamese today. Another 40,000 Vietnamese have been killed by land mines the US planted, and not only have we not funded the clean up effort -- we never even gave Vietnam the data they needed to try to find them all.

    Vietnam Passage. The Perspectives: Landmines: War's Lingering Menace | PBS

    You may have heard me and other Boomers complain that we were so active, politically astute and angry in our 20's, fighting for justice on every front. and then lost our way, becoming self-indulgent and selfish in our 30's and thereafter. I think the 1975 to 1980 period is when that happened, because the possibility of no longer focusing on the horrors of war and government-sponsored oppression in the US against minorities, etc. was just irresistible. We could not spend our entire lives "in the service of the cause". We are entitled to be proud of the justice we accomplished at home -- especially ending Jim Crow -- but nonetheless, we are just humans. We wanted real lives, too, with families and careers.

    The Vietnam War was so horrific because the US PTB could not take on board that a civil war there was a matter of urgent, even life or death importance to the Vietnamese. Our political and military leaders could not accept the rights of other nations to self-determination, and to CHOOSE to install a communist regime if they wished. Frightened witless by Communist China and the Soviet Union, we engaged in some of the most egregious misery-making of any nation in history. And MOST Americans were okay with that, then and now, because the Asians fighting for their homeland in Vietnam, along with their families, were "not like us" aka we were racists.

    That's my POV; others have no doubt got a different one. But on this Memorial Day weekend, as we casually discuss making war against China, and so many seem at ease with the possibility of making war ANYWHERE, it behooves us all to pause and reflect on what the reality of war actually is.

    Your thoughts?

    One problem with your source... NIXON COULD NOT ORDER THE NATIONAL GUARD TO SHOOT TO KILL.. National Guard when Deployed in the US can only take orders from the GOVERNOR OF THE STATE...

    This makes me suspect the accuracy of the rest of the source.

    also.. Rolling Thunder had North Vietnam ready to surrender.. According to General Gaip North Vietnam was ready to surrender were drawing up terms to offer.. Then the bombing stopped.. (Thanks to LBJ stopping the bombing ~20-25,000 americans lost their lives due to the war extending to 1973.

    https://www.amazon.com/How-Won-War-N.../dp/0916894010

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by TNVolunteer73 View Post
    One problem with your source... NIXON COULD NOT ORDER THE NATIONAL GUARD TO SHOOT TO KILL.. National Guard when Deployed in the US can only take orders from the GOVERNOR OF THE STATE...

    This makes me suspect the accuracy of the rest of the source.

    also.. Rolling Thunder had North Vietnam ready to surrender.. According to General Gaip North Vietnam was ready to surrender were drawing up terms to offer.. Then the bombing stopped.. (Thanks to LBJ stopping the bombing ~20-25,000 americans lost their lives due to the war extending to 1973.

    https://www.amazon.com/How-Won-War-N.../dp/0916894010
    It's Giap. Not Gaip. If you're going to bang out horseshit, at least spell the names correctly.

    Remind us, you served when Mr. Tennessee Volunteer?

    Cheers and Happy Memorial Day,

    Bourne
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  3. #23
    Veteran Member Madeline's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TNVolunteer73 View Post
    One problem with your source... NIXON COULD NOT ORDER THE NATIONAL GUARD TO SHOOT TO KILL.. National Guard when Deployed in the US can only take orders from the GOVERNOR OF THE STATE...

    This makes me suspect the accuracy of the rest of the source.

    also.. Rolling Thunder had North Vietnam ready to surrender.. According to General Gaip North Vietnam was ready to surrender were drawing up terms to offer.. Then the bombing stopped.. (Thanks to LBJ stopping the bombing ~20-25,000 americans lost their lives due to the war extending to 1973.

    https://www.amazon.com/How-Won-War-N.../dp/0916894010
    I will happily debate Nixon and Kent State with you, on another thread. There are audio tapes that were not discovered until the 21st century that you might not be aware of.

    No, North Vietnam was not ever close to surrendering.

    They were then as the Israelis are now. Prepared to fight to the death.

    Colonial power in SE Asia was extremely dehumanizing, just as it was in India.
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  4. #24
    Veteran Member Micro Machines Champion, Race Against Time Champion Tedminator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TNVolunteer73 View Post
    also.. Rolling Thunder had North Vietnam ready to surrender.. According to General Gaip North Vietnam was ready to surrender were drawing up terms to offer.. Then the bombing stopped.. (Thanks to LBJ stopping the bombing ~20-25,000 americans lost their lives due to the war extending to 1973.

    https://www.amazon.com/How-Won-War-N.../dp/0916894010

    @TNVolunteer73 ..dude, seriously, you are an ignorant liar. I've already pointed out your fake news to you in the past yet you keep repeating it.


    First of all, that book you meantioned has been the subject of several unfounded rumors on the internet. Giap never said that the Vietnamese leaders ever considered giving up on the war. This link has the details.. General Vo Nguyen Giap on the Vietnam War

    Second point; Keep in mind that Vietnam fought China's occupation of their country for a thousand years, and eventually defeated the chinese invaders, just as they defeated the french and japanese invaders. I doubt the Vietnamese would have surrendered to the American occupiers anytime soon either.
    Last edited by Tedminator; 29th May 2017 at 08:18 PM.
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  5. #25
    Veteran Member Micro Machines Champion, Race Against Time Champion Tedminator's Avatar
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    huh interesting story. first time I hear about it..



    check out the footage of two mini subs strapped to the bow of the submarine.
    Last edited by Tedminator; 27th August 2017 at 03:14 PM.
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