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Thread: Russia & The Atomic Bomb

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    Veteran Member Madeline's Avatar
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    Russia & The Atomic Bomb

    Post-WWII, one thing all ordinary Americans, and likely all humans then living, agreed was that using an atomic bomb ever again was a horrific possibility that threatened life all over the planet. In 1962, the Cuban Missile Crisis occurred.

    This is the "official" version, according to the US government:

    During the Cuban Missile Crisis, leaders of the U.S. and the Soviet Union engaged in a tense, 13-day political and military standoff in October 1962 over the installation of nuclear-armed Soviet missiles on Cuba, just 90 miles from U.S. shores. In a TV address on October 22, 1962, President John Kennedy (1917-63) notified Americans about the presence of the missiles, explained his decision to enact a naval blockade around Cuba and made it clear the U.S. was prepared to use military force if necessary to neutralize this perceived threat to national security. Following this news, many people feared the world was on the brink of nuclear war. However, disaster was avoided when the U.S. agreed to Soviet leader Nikita Khrushchev’s (1894-1971) offer to remove the Cuban missiles in exchange for the U.S. promising not to invade Cuba. Kennedy also secretly agreed to remove U.S. missiles from Turkey.
    Intercontinental ballistic missiles (ICBMs) were a theoretical possibility in 1962, but not yet a reality for either of the only two nuclear bomb-capacity nations, the US and the USSR. For this reason, we could not bomb one another and we were both working furiously for the development of ICBM systems, so that would be possible.

    Therefore, a nuclear bomb facility located 90 miles from the US, inside Cuba whose government legitimately hated the US government, was a terrible risk that JFK was quite right to prevent.


    Except that he didn't. Unbeknownst to the CIA or to JFK, the Joint Chiefs, etc., the Soviets had already installed nuclear bombs on Cuba.

    Or so says Oliver Stone.

    Stone's TV history class might well be named US Heresies 101. "We're going to take these texts from regular history and compare them to what we think happened." He will teach that the bombing of Hiroshima was premised on a lie, that the CIA's secret war against leftist Central American governments was based on chimerical communist threat, that the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq were follies and, perhaps most intolerable of all to patriots, that the United States of America is just as self-serving, duplicitous, corrupt, oppressive, expansionist and racist as – there's no easy way to say this – the British empire.
    https://www.theguardian.com/film/201...ica-went-wrong

    This is Oliver Stone's version of what happened:

    He portrays Wallace [FDR's VP] as the man who could have spared the US its postwar debacles – the cold war, Vietnam, the "war on terror" – had he managed to get that vice-presidential nomination in 1944. Wallace was, in short, the good father snatched away when America needed him most.

    It's hard not to think that Stone has told this story before. In his 1991 film JFK, he depicted President Kennedy as a peace-loving liberal taken from America by a murderous conservative conspiracy covered up by the Warren Commission. He and Kuznick write: "We do know that Kennedy had many enemies who deplored progressive change just as fervently as those who had blocked Henry Wallace in 1944 when he was trying to lead the United States and the world down a similar path to peace and prosperity." For them, Kennedy died resisting the forces that wanted to push him into war with the Soviet Union.

    *Snip*

    For Stone, Kennedy was the guy who could have spared the US the debacle of Vietnam and ended the cold war. "It was just inconceivable that Kennedy would have said yes to ground troops in Vietnam. He'd said no to the military on Laos. He'd said no at the Bay of Pigs on air support. And no at the Cuban missile crisis – that's the greatest single act of human courage this world has ever witnessed with that much at stake."
    https://www.theguardian.com/film/201...ica-went-wrong

    What happened in 1962 matters for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is the impact the Cuban Missile Crisis has had on the people who lived through it and how that shapes their decision-making now.
    Last edited by Madeline; 11th September 2017 at 11:55 PM.

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    Veteran Member Madeline's Avatar
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    PBS's series "Endeavor" explores this theme. In this last episode, the writers deal a bit with how ordinary UK people were impacted by the US/USSR brinksmanship in 1962.



    The full episode is streaming on PBS and YouTube.
    Thanks from Friday13

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    Sally Sitter Paris's Avatar
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    So much guilt.
    Guess that comes from being the only country to ever use such a horrific weapon on civilians.
    War crimes, anybody?
    Thanks from Madeline

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    Veteran Member Madeline's Avatar
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    It matters NOW whether the Soviet Union was a hyper-aggressive nation bent on world domination, frustrated only by the might, sacrifices and wisdom of the United States, and whether Russia continues to have this same national character.

    It matters NOW who killed JFK.

    It matters NOW if in fact, in 1962, the CIA was such a failure that the Soviets were able to install nuclear weapons in Cuba and they knew nothing about this until they stumbled across the ships bringing in the equipment needed to fire them on the US.

    It matters NOW that whether, in fact, the Cuban Missile Crisis would not have happened if the US had not installed nuclear bombs in Turkey, aimed directly at Moscow. Who really started and fueled the Cold War and its arms race?

    It matters NOW if the Cuban Missile Crisis kicked off because Nikita Khrushchev was a meglomanical bully willing to risk killing the planet in order that the Soviet Union might dominate it all:



    Or if, instead, Khrushchev saved the world from the US, whose spies and generals all wanted to nuke the USSR or one of its allies, and had been slathering over the chance ever since WWII ended.



    @The Man......whaca think?
    Last edited by Madeline; 11th September 2017 at 11:58 PM.

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    Veteran Member Madeline's Avatar
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    Veteran Member Madeline's Avatar
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    Veteran Member Madeline's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paris View Post
    So much guilt.
    Guess that comes from being the only country to ever use such a horrific weapon on civilians.
    War crimes, anybody?
    Oliver Stone makes this point emphatically. You might enjoy his new series, if you have not seen it.

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    Veteran Member Madeline's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madeline View Post
    JFK was correct about this, but forgot to add "even if that aggression is the result of American hyper-imperialism".

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    The Un-Holy One The Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madeline View Post
    It matters NOW whether the Soviet Union was a hyper-aggressive nation bent on world domination, frustrated only by the might, sacrifices and wisdom of the United States, and whether Russia continues to have this same national character.

    It matters NOW who killed JFK.

    It matters NOW if in fact, in 1962, the CIA was such a failure that the Soviets were able to install nuclear weapons in Cuba and they knew nothing about this until they stumbled across the ships bringing in the equipment needed to fire them on the US.

    It matters NOW that whether, in fact, the Cuban Missile Crisis would not have happened if the US had not installed nuclear bombs in Turkey, aimed directly at Moscow. Who really started and fueled the Cold War and its arms race?

    It matters NOW if the Cuban Missile Crisis kicked off because Nikita Khrushchev was a meglomanical bully willing to risk killing the planet in order that the Soviet Union might dominate it all:



    Or if, instead,Khrushchev saved the world from the US, whose spies and generals all wanted to nuke the USSR or one of its allies, and had been slathering over the chance ever since WWII ended.



    @The Man......whaca think?
    I don't think Khrushchev was bringht enough to put together any complex scheme to either dominate the world, or save it. Guy looked like big bold hog, and he was about as smart as a pig too... I recall my own grandfather's diaries I read, where he writes about life as a military officer under Khrushchev. Calls the guy "the biggest, most hopeless idiot I have ever encountered" The military hated Khrushchev. Lots of them felt that his moronic ignorance would eventually destroy them all, if left unchecked...

    Yet, for all his alleged stupidity... He did, in exchange for pulling out of Cuba, apparently get the US to remove their missiles from Turkey. He did accomplish that...

    Even a dumbass can do something right, once in a while hehe

    Probably though, that was the work of smarter underlings, which he took credit for, like any boss
    Thanks from Friday13 and Madeline

  10. #10
    Veteran Member Madeline's Avatar
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    NOTHING divides American liberals from American conservatives MORE than whether the US was/is justified in using "any means necessary" to repeal the "threat of the spread of Communism".

    Such a threat did exist, as neither Stalin nor Mao Tse Tung were good to their own peoples. Both created extremely repressive dictatorships and no mentally healthy human would have preferred to live under such a system of government as opposed to the democracy of the US.



    But the choices people faced in the East were not EITHER Stalinism or American-style democracy. It was "Communism" or anarchy, or feudalism or a horrible monarchy. The West simple does not have the frame of reference to understand the struggles of Asia and Latin America, and why "communism" was a very attractive option as they struggle to become modern, first world nations.

    American conservatives think communism is "the worst thing that could ever happen to America", but in fact, there has never been any risk that it COULD happen.

    American liberals think fascism is the "worst thing that could ever happen in America", and they are correct. And that threat is real, ever-present and has never been higher than it is today.
    Last edited by Madeline; 12th September 2017 at 12:11 AM.

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