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Thread: Origins of Baseball

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasselas View Post
    Rounders pre-dates baseball. If anything, baseball derives from Rounders.

    A baseball league was started in Britain in the early 20th century, but it didn't last.
    Rounders was brought to the States by the English. That goes back to the 18th century....

    Baseball has many origins, but none of them have anything to do with Abner Doubleday.

    The Americans who wanted to argue that Baseball was of American origin falsified documents, invented witnesses and concocted the Doubleday mythos.

    Not to say that Americans didn't shape the game.

    baseball.jpg

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by boontito View Post
    1880's, the batter stepped up to the plate and made his preference known to the umpire if he wanted a low or high pitch. The umpire then notified the pitcher who was instructed to throw just that type of pitch. The batter was not allowed to change his preference after the first pitch was thrown.
    Apparently, the pitcher was pretty unimportant before the later 1800s. Scores of 50+ to 40+ were not not uncommon.

  3. #33
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    Did "America's Pasttime" actually being in Canada? Read on about the history of baseball in Canada in some of the information below.

    CanadaInfo: Symbols, Facts, & Lists: Inventions: Baseball

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by kmiller1610 View Post
    Apparently, the pitcher was pretty unimportant before the later 1800s. Scores of 50+ to 40+ were not not uncommon.
    One 'ol Cat was played with fewer players, too, so there were fewer fielders. That's part of the reason it made sense to "soak" your opponent.
    Thanks from kmiller1610

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasselas View Post
    One 'ol Cat was played with fewer players, too, so there were fewer fielders. That's part of the reason it made sense to "soak" your opponent.
    Old Cat varied with the number of stations (they didn't have bases) by the number. 4 Old Cat resembled rounders because rather than just running back and forth between two stations, you had 4. Actually the soaking was probably a lot of fun until they decided to change the rule and make a harder ball.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_cat

  6. #36
    Vexatious Correspondent Leo2's Avatar
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    All the evidence points to 'baseball' developing from the English game of 'rounders' at some time before the American Civil War. Rounders dates back to Tudor times in England, and is still a popular game with English school girls.

    Rounders (Irish: cluiche corr) is a bat-and-ball game played between two teams. Rounders is a striking and fielding team game that involves hitting a small, hard, leather-cased ball with a rounded end wooden, plastic or metal bat. The players score by running around the four bases on the field.[1][2] The game is popular among Irish and British school children.[3][4]

    Gameplay centres on a number of innings, in which teams alternate at batting and fielding. A maximum of nine players are allowed to field at any time. Points (known as 'rounders') are scored by the batting team when one of their players completes a circuit past four bases without being put 'out'.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rounders

    According to the United States Sporting Goods Manufacturers Association (US-SGMA), those English immigrants who had settled in New York spent their free time playing cricket in the 1700s.
    Up the coast in Boston, cricket was also played by English immigrants, notably those who considered themselves as gentry.

    But Boston had begun quite early on to acquire both a plebean and an Irish flavor. The game of rounders, an earlier form of cricket which seems to have been favored by the Irish, as well as by English children in the 16th century, became the game of choice among the youth.

    The Boston cricketers of the time encouraged "Rounders" as a secondary diversion, and even allowed it to be played in their cricket fields by those who preferred an alternative to the more formal sport of cricket.

    So "early baseball", i.e. " US Rounders", grew up in the USA under cricket's benign umbrella. It stayed that way for about the first hundred years of its existence.
    Cricinfo - USA
    Thanks from kmiller1610

  7. #37
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    Approaching the end of John Thorn's "Baseball in the Garden of Eden" and have a question for this learned community.

    What philosophy / quasi-religion of the 19th century played an indirect role in the baseball creation myth of Abner Doubleday?

    This was quite a surprise. I was not expecting to run into a religious plot.

  8. #38
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    What is "transcendentalism?"

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasselas View Post
    What is "transcendentalism?"
    Nope, the answer is Theosophy.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doubleday_myth

    In the late 19th century and early 20th century, a dispute arose about the origins of baseball and whether it had been invented in the United States or developed as a variation of the British game of rounders. The theory that the sport was created in the U.S. was backed by Chicago Cubs president Albert Spalding and National League president Abraham G. Mills. In 1889, Mills gave a speech declaring that baseball was American, which he said was determined through "patriotism and research"; a crowd of about 300 people responding by chanting "No rounders!"[2] The rounders theory was supported by prominent sportswriter Henry Chadwick, a native of Britain who noted common factors between rounders and baseball in a 1903 article.[3] In 1905, Spalding called for an investigation into how the sport was invented. Chadwick supported the idea, and later in the year a commission was formed. Spalding instructed the commission to decide between the American game of "Old Cat" and rounders as baseball's predecessor. Seven men served on the commission, including Mills. Spalding chose the committee's members, picking men who supported his theory and excluding supporters of the rounders claim, such as Chadwick
    Abner Doubleday was an officer for the Union during the American Civil War, who saw action in the Battle of Gettysburg.[1] According to the myth, he set up the first baseball game in approximately 1839, in Cooperstown, New York. The April 4, 1905, edition of the Akron Beacon Journal newspaper included the first story that described the legend
    Spalding also had a connection to Doubleday: he financially supported the Theosophical Society, a group in which Doubleday served as a chapter vice president
    https://www.theosophical.org/

  10. #40
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    Halfway through David Block's "Baseball before we knew it." This historical exploration pursues ball games back though ancient history. It's both exhaustive and exhausting. The summary version is that rounders emerged in England about the same time as baseball in the US, so cannot be seen as a progenitor, Block goes back to much older European games including Base-Ball which is actually a progenitor of rounders. Here are some of the games Block explores.

    Base-Ball 1744

    base ball.jpg

    Stool ball (15th century)

    stool ball.jpg

    Trap Ball (14th century)

    Last edited by kmiller1610; 10th March 2016 at 03:12 AM.

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