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Thread: Origins of Baseball

  1. #41
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    A set of slides showing a re-creation of stool-ball


  2. #42
    Established Member BitterPill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kmiller1610 View Post
    This should be a hot topic. Not. But I am into it, so I am looking for fellow enthusiasts.

    Having exhausted the Nazis, I am up for some lighter fare.

    So Doubleday, Chadwick, Knickerbockers, soaking runners, soft balls, it's all fascinating and relevant because today's political talking points and "facts" are blown up by historians of the future. This subject is all about documents and sources.

    I suspect rounders is the progenitor of baseball.

  3. #43
    Veteran Member Yeti 8 Jungle Swing Champion, YetiSports 4 - Albatross Overload Champion, YetiSports7 - Snowboard FreeRide Champion, Alu`s Revenge Champion boontito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BitterPill View Post
    I suspect rounders is the progenitor of baseball.


    It's a good movie but I think you're giving it way too much credit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by boontito View Post


    It's a good movie but I think you're giving it way too much credit.
    Perhaps when I know you better, I'll give your opinion more credit, but at this point I don't want to waste X hours on a movie I might not like. After all, like you I have important internet posting I must attend to.

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    vulgar? Rasselas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BitterPill View Post
    Perhaps when I know you better, I'll give your opinion more credit, but at this point I don't want to waste X hours on a movie I might not like. After all, like you I have important internet posting I must attend to.
    It's about poker. He's having you on.

  6. #46
    Established Member BitterPill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasselas View Post
    It's about poker. He's having you on.
    I don't actually have important internet posting to attend, either. I'm just playing along.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by BitterPill View Post
    I suspect rounders is the progenitor of baseball.
    Since Base Ball and Base existed in England well before rounders, I really doubt it. There was a french game called poison ball. And trap ball and stool ball were around for hundreds of years before rounders. Just because Chadwick wanted to credit rounders doesn't make it so. Just because Spalding wanted to credit Doubleday, his fellow Theosophist, doesn't make it so. Block's book includes hundreds of examples of historical documents that cite varying ball games. The earliest game called base ball, was cited in a children's book of games and it was dated 1744. Rounders doesn't start showing up until well into the 19th century. Kids have enjoyed running and throwing and catching and hitting balls with sticks forever. Emotionally, people want a specific creation myth. In this case, it's a lot more like the drip drip drip of evolution.

    See post #40.
    Last edited by kmiller1610; 26th March 2016 at 02:43 AM.

  8. #48
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    Done with Brock and onto this excellent book, Lawrence Ritter's "The Glory of their Times."

    It looks as though Ken Burns relied on this book in his films on baseball because I keep running into quotes that surface in the film.

    Ritter went around in the late 1950s and interviewed players who were still around about the early baseball players (1890 - 1930). The book is transcriptions of those conversations, so the book has that oral tradition, folksy, slightly wandering quality you would expect from a conversation with an older person.

    It reads well and is full of details and observations that have the ring of truth.

    Amazon.com: The Glory of Their Times: The Story of the Early Days of Baseball Told by the Men Who Played It (Harper Perennial Modern Classics) (9780061994715): Lawrence S. Ritter: Books

  9. #49
    vulgar? Rasselas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kmiller1610 View Post
    Since Base Ball and Base existed in England well before rounders, I really doubt it. There was a french game called poison ball. And trap ball and stool ball were around for hundreds of years before rounders. Just because Chadwick wanted to credit rounders doesn't make it so. Just because Spalding wanted to credit Doubleday, his fellow Theosophist, doesn't make it so. Block's book includes hundreds of examples of historical documents that cite varying ball games. The earliest game called base ball, was cited in a children's book of games and it was dated 1744. Rounders doesn't start showing up until well into the 19th century. Kids have enjoyed running and throwing and catching and hitting balls with sticks forever. Emotionally, people want a specific creation myth. In this case, it's a lot more like the drip drip drip of evolution.

    See post #40.
    You really should have presented this thesis earlier, rather than dripping stuff out to us a bit at a time. We're not all reading the same book you are, so you leave us with the impression you're not playing fair. I see now, in the cited post, the thesis of the book in full (so far at least) and I really think we should have STARTED the discussion with that information. Now that you've presented it, there's really nothing to argue about--unless one is a competing scholar of baseball history with a competing thesis and the evidence to support it; those are rare and probably don't post at this forum.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasselas View Post
    You really should have presented this thesis earlier, rather than dripping stuff out to us a bit at a time. We're not all reading the same book you are, so you leave us with the impression you're not playing fair. I see now, in the cited post, the thesis of the book in full (so far at least) and I really think we should have STARTED the discussion with that information. Now that you've presented it, there's really nothing to argue about--unless one is a competing scholar of baseball history with a competing thesis and the evidence to support it; those are rare and probably don't post at this forum.
    I didn't have the thesis to present. Brock's book is far more comprehensive and detailed. There are are over 100 cites covering the middle ages to 1870. The first book I read focused mainly on the competing "Rounders versus Doubleday" dispute (Thorn: Baseball in the Garden of Eden). But honestly I've only read two books. Got anything better?

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