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Thread: What we are not taught about Crusades

  1. #21
    New Member PopeADope's Avatar
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    You know the second definition of crusade in the online dictionary is "any war carried on under papal sanction."

    Whatever. it seems we are splitting hairs because you are trying to compensate for the fact that your claim about Lepanto was more than six hundred years off.

    What I tried to explain in the video was that Muslims were conquering and forcing their ways on people all over the place, in many nations , and chronically on the attack for hundreds of years.

    Islamic aggression had to be fought for the survival of Europe , and Palestine was land that the Muslims had stolen.

    When I keep hearing people talk about the Crusades or seeing something on TV, this is not addressed , and it should be. That was my point.

    In school, teachers talked so much about Christian atrocities in the Dark Ages, but not about Islamic atrocities , and the fact that it is not the Dark Ages anymore, and the Muslims are still living like it is, ruining the lives of and robbing millions of people of basic liberties.

  2. #22
    New Member PopeADope's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldGaffer View Post
    My favorite Crusade, Crusaders sacking Constantinople, the Christian Capitol of the Byzantine Empire



    Such good guys. They deserve our applause

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_...tinople_(1204)
    Yes they disgust me and they were ordered by the church not to do that.

    It is Thoroughly nauseating.

    However, that doesn't change the fact that if the Crusaders or anyone was to have liberated nations from Islam , those nations would have far more freedom to this day.

    Imagine all the woman who could vote, Drive, get an education, dress the way they want to, not get stoned to death, all the hands and heads that would not be chopped off, all the car bombs that would not be going off.

    Trying to stop Muslims from doing that ,even if it isn't a Christian movement, is a very noble cause. One of the first steps is to know the truth and speak the truth.

  3. #23
    vulgar? Rasselas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PopeADope View Post
    You know the second definition of crusade in the online dictionary is "any war carried on under papal sanction."

    Whatever. it seems we are splitting hairs because you are trying to compensate for the fact that your claim about Lepanto was more than six hundred years off.

    What I tried to explain in the video was that Muslims were conquering and forcing their ways on people all over the place, in many nations , and chronically on the attack for hundreds of years.

    Islamic aggression had to be fought for the survival of Europe , and Palestine was land that the Muslims had stolen.

    When I keep hearing people talk about the Crusades or seeing something on TV, this is not addressed , and it should be. That was my point.

    In school, teachers talked so much about Christian atrocities in the Dark Ages, but not about Islamic atrocities , and the fact that it is not the Dark Ages anymore, and the Muslims are still living like it is, ruining the lives of and robbing millions of people of basic liberties.
    As I said, a single "just" battle can justify only itself. It cannot justify any other conflict just because you use the same word to describe it. A war fought in Judea by European forces is a war of conquest, not a defensive war. That's what most of the crusades were.
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    Veteran Member PACE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PopeADope View Post
    Did or did Christians not unite to kick Muslims out of France and Spain, and did they not halt the Ottoman advances and save Europe from an Islamic take-over?

    Were the Crusades not a response to Islamic aggression and muslims using violence to steal land that didn't belong to them?
    No, Attaturk crushed the Ottoman Empire, read history, stop making shit up

  5. #25
    Anarquistador StanStill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PopeADope View Post
    You know the second definition of crusade in the online dictionary is "any war carried on under papal sanction."

    Whatever....

    You have to admit, when anyone read your question "Were the Crusades not a response to Islamic aggression and muslims using violence to steal land that didn't belong to them?" most people were probably not going to think you meant this very loose definition of "crusade" and would probably think of the 400 year period of Papal sanctioned wars to conquer the Holy Land known as "The Crusades".

    Deciding that you really meant a specific battle that took place after most people mark the end of the Crusades but which was under papal sanction (and which apparently some historian has termed "a crusade") is kind of changing boats mid-stream don't you think? How was anyone supposed to know?
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    Spock of Vulcan Ian Jeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasselas View Post
    The only way someone can call a war "just" is if that war is defensive.
    That is only one theory of a "just war." There are more than a few others.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_war_theory

    I particularly remember studying Hugo Grotius in college (though I can no longer remember in which class).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugo_G...Belli_ac_Pacis

  7. #27
    New Member PopeADope's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StanStill View Post
    You have to admit, when anyone read your question "Were the Crusades not a response to Islamic aggression and muslims using violence to steal land that didn't belong to them?" most people were probably not going to think you meant this very loose definition of "crusade" and would probably think of the 400 year period of Papal sanctioned wars to conquer the Holy Land known as "The Crusades".

    Deciding that you really meant a specific battle that took place after most people mark the end of the Crusades but which was under papal sanction (and which apparently some historian has termed "a crusade") is kind of changing boats mid-stream don't you think? How was anyone supposed to know?
    Even the Crusades in Egypt or for the Holy Land were in response to Muslim aggression. So, when Hitler conquered France, what if He holds France for a long time before an invasion of Normandy...

    Could we deny that the Allied invasion to reclaim France was a response to Nazi aggression?

  8. #28
    New Member PopeADope's Avatar
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    And no, I wasn't just talking about Lepanto. I mentioned Europeans kicking Muslims out of France, Spain, and multiple other nations that they had conquered.

    I was saying there is a lot of information about what the Muslims were doing that provoked such responses from Christendom , that should be spoken of as well when the Crusades are being discussed.

    It should also be addressed that the equivalent of Crusades and inquisitions under a different name are affecting an enormous amount of people today.

    The Crusades were hundreds of years ago. Yet when I bring up Islamic atrocities, I keep repeatedly hearing the mantra " look at the Crusades, look at the Crusades!"

    The point was , growing up I was taught so much about about atrocities of crusaders , but not what Muslims did to bring it upon themselves, and the benefits of European responses.

    That should be addressed.

  9. #29
    vulgar? Rasselas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Jeffrey View Post
    That is only one theory of a "just war." There are more than a few others.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_war_theory

    I particularly remember studying Hugo Grotius in college (though I can no longer remember in which class).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugo_G...Belli_ac_Pacis
    Under most theories, the first crusade might have been just, but after that they were a cluster*ck.

  10. #30
    vulgar? Rasselas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PopeADope View Post
    The Crusades were hundreds of years ago. Yet when I bring up Islamic atrocities, I keep repeatedly hearing the mantra " look at the Crusades, look at the Crusades!"
    Really? I think the Inquisition, pogroms, and atrocities committed by protestants and Catholics against each other is a much more effective retort.

    Christian METHODS during the Crusades were certainly despicable and make Muslims from that time look good by comparison.

    As for "bringing it on themselves," Muslims in that period weren't doing much that everyone else wasn't doing at other times and places.

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