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Thread: Is European Freedom Of Speech Better Than American?

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madeline View Post
    You are correct, that the US has plenty of criticism coming for its mishandling of our freedom of speech, even as it is currently interpreted by our SCOTUS.

    But I disagree that silencing all but polite discussions of racist etc. ideas has value. We did not end Jim Crow in a debate in a Harvard classroom.

    We ended it with the blood of Civil Rights protesters, and the nations disgust at the southern states' government abuse of their non-white citizens.

    In a very real sense, this is the photo that tolled the death knell for Jim Crow:






    https://www.biography.com/people/emmett-till-507515

    Was it wrong, IYO, for Maimi Till to "give offense" by arranging an open casket funeral for her child?
    To be polite doesn't mean that you cannot express the core of what you think ! Simply you do not use direct verbal violence and you tell what you want to tell using facts and intelligentlanguage... It is more efficient anyway if you want to forward your message than insult....
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  2. #12
    Veteran Member Madeline's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by galatin View Post
    To be polite doesn't mean that you cannot express the core of what you think ! Simply you do not use direct verbal violence and you tell what you want to tell using facts and intelligent language... It is more efficient anyway if you want to forward your message than insult....
    Without the 1968 Chicago Democratic Convention Riots and the 1970 Kent State Massacre, would the US have withdrawn from Vietnam in 1975 -- or would it have lingered on to 1985?

    Aren't those lives saved valuable enough to justify a little rudeness. a little verbal violence?

  3. #13
    The Un-Holy One The Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madeline View Post
    How do we judge the validity of the criticism now being flung at Trump and the US government, that his racist speech is inspiring more racist hate crimes, if the black students and protesters in BLM, etc. try to silence everyone's discussion of racism, past and present?



    Note: on private property, this sign is 100% okay, because we have freedom to assemble -- and to exclude anyone we want -- on property we own. But on a public university's property, this sign is as unconstitutional as this one:



    How are we to discuss the cause of the rise in hate crimes in this country when too many of our public colleges and universities saw students wearing pro-Trump gear before the election bullied by other students, without stepping in to protect them? Some were reportedly even threatened that the offended students would ask the college to EXPEL the "offending " Trump supporters among them. Who knows whether any such expulsion did in fact take place?

    Is "polite" protesting BETTER for our society and our democracy, or is it (as I contend) actually almost WORTHLESS in achieving real change? Is a kerfuffle at a protest so terrible that we want -- even demand -- that the 1st amendment be narrow and government censorship powers created?

    Your thoughts?
    I don't want "censorship". I also don't think bigoted rhetoric and behavior should be acceptable in public.
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  4. #14
    Veteran Member Madeline's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Man View Post
    I don't want "censorship". I also don't think bigoted rhetoric and behavior should be acceptable in public.
    Well, you must choose one, Daddio.

    Which is worse, IYO?

    Americans do shout at their bigots, yanno.

    Is this image "too upsetting", IYO?



  5. #15
    The Un-Holy One The Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madeline View Post
    Well, you must choose one, Daddio.

    Which is worse, IYO?

    Americans do shout at their bigots, yanno.

    Is this image "too upsetting", IYO?

    Not at all, I support that. And support those not wishing to share space with Trumpers too.

    Some say we shouldn't censor "unpopular" ideas. But they are unpopular for a reason, usually
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  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madeline View Post
    Without the 1968 Chicago Democratic Convention Riots and the 1970 Kent State Massacre, would the US have withdrawn from Vietnam in 1975 -- or would it have lingered on to 1985?

    Aren't those lives saved valuable enough to justify a little rudeness. a little verbal violence?
    The question is how to make public opinion aware of what is at stake. Riots can serve this purpose, but it is only if the democratic Tools, which can make things evolve, are crippled. And on the long run, I have the feeling that institutions in the US have a hard time to adjust to mutations in the world in general and especiaééy of the American society. It is more difficult for the US to adapt, because the country was so much ahead of others during such a long time and had unlimited opportunities in comparison to others, that it is very difficult to accept that these advantages may be shrinking. In a way Trump is very typical of this mood. He considers that the rest of the world is unfair to the US, but never mentions words like performance to explain why exchanges may be unblanced, nor is he ready to face the fact that the US asked other countries to finance the trade deficit since years. It is a Dangerous attitude, because he is putting a smoke screen on everything and refuses reality...
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  7. #17
    Veteran Member Madeline's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by galatin View Post
    The question is how to make public opinion aware of what is at stake. Riots can serve this purpose, but it is only if the democratic Tools, which can make things evolve, are crippled. And on the long run, I have the feeling that institutions in the US have a hard time to adjust to mutations in the world in general and especiaééy of the American society. It is more difficult for the US to adapt, because the country was so much ahead of others during such a long time and had unlimited opportunities in comparison to others, that it is very difficult to accept that these advantages may be shrinking. In a way Trump is very typical of this mood. He considers that the rest of the world is unfair to the US, but never mentions words like performance to explain why exchanges may be unblanced, nor is he ready to face the fact that the US asked other countries to finance the trade deficit since years. It is a Dangerous attitude, because he is putting a smoke screen on everything and refuses reality...
    The American public has a very wide streak of fair play. They will be slow to move, but if convinced the government is unfairly oppressing a minority, they will demand progress.

    This has always involved protesters being beaten or killed by police, CAUGHT on tape.

    No blood, no progress.

    IMO.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madeline View Post
    This difference is wildly believed to account for the somewhat more noisy and raucous protests and counterprotests that occur in the US as compared to Europe. (That's a BIG generalization.)
    I don't see how this big generalization is in any way accurate. European protests are more numerous and often more violent.
    Since 95% of this board "wishes protesters could be more polite and respectful", seems worth looking at.
    I don't see that either.
    Your thoughts?
    We're doing a good job of ignoring our ignoble past already.
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  9. #19
    Southern Strategy Liberal OldGaffer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Man View Post
    I don't want "censorship". I also don't think bigoted rhetoric and behavior should be acceptable in public.
    You made a good move, from a 22/100 country(Russia) to a 98/100 Country(Canada) on the Freedom Scale

    https://freedomhouse.org/report/free...dom-world-2016
    Thanks from The Man and Madeline

  10. #20
    Polemicist Supremum Monk-Eye's Avatar
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    From
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    Disarming The Opposition

    " Disarming The Opposition "

    * Creepy Sharia *

    For speech to be classified as hate speech , it must include violations of non aggression principles , which must include a threat or actual illegitimate aggression against self ownership or self determination of other individuals , where the meaning of illegitimate is subject to contention within self defence .

    The censorship of europe is just another stepping stone in the ploy by fictional ishmaelism to facilitate #_I_SLAM_A_PHOBIA and to implement its strangle hold on the truth about its violent objectives against non believers and their individual liberties .

    Quite simply , placing expectations that the hate speech militant manifesto of the qurayn be applied out side of hejaz on trial is self defence and not hate speech according to non aggression principles , but it is speech that would be censored in europe .

    The west has everything to lose by being prevented from criticising fictional ishmaelism i slam , whereas the latter has everything to gain by making tolerance of its intolerance acceptable .
    Last edited by Monk-Eye; 29th May 2017 at 11:03 AM.

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