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Thread: Had Constantine lost the battle of Milvian Bridge....

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    Master political analyst Dittohead not!'s Avatar
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    Had Constantine lost the battle of Milvian Bridge....

    .....how might today's world be different?


    Battle of Milvian Bridge, (28 October 312). The battle fought at Milvian Bridge outside Rome was a crucial moment in a civil war that ended with Constantine I as sole ruler of the Roman Empire and Christianity established as the empire’s official religion. Constantine’s conversion to the Cross may have been prompted by a dream of victory.
    Invitation to speculation.

    Read more about the battle here
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    The Republican Agenda HadEnough2's Avatar
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    Wouldn't Christianity had made it to the forefront eventually anyway?

    Of course I think the whole God thing was a scam. Then you have Religion which is just one person telling another person that God said you need to give me money. I guess that's another OP.

    Interesting times back then. Love that period in history which tends to repeat itself. Don't have to look much further than Emperor Caligula sitting in the White House.
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    Master political analyst Dittohead not!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HadEnough2 View Post
    Wouldn't Christianity had made it to the forefront eventually anyway?

    Of course I think the whole God thing was a scam. Then you have Religion which is just one person telling another person that God said you need to give me money. I guess that's another OP.

    Interesting times back then. Love that period in history which tends to repeat itself. Don't have to look much further than Emperor Caligula sitting in the White House.
    Would it? Had the Roman Empire not been Christianized, how wold Christianity have spread to Europe? Had Europe not gone Christian, who would have spread that religion to the Americas?
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    Happiness is a warm gun Blues63's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Would it? Had the Roman Empire not been Christianized, how wold Christianity have spread to Europe? Had Europe not gone Christian, who would have spread that religion to the Americas?
    The spread of, and the religious hegemony of Christianity would have eventually occurred in my opinion. Nearly sixty years after the Milvian bridge, Julian the Apostate failed with his conservative policies to restore the old pantheon and I believe that Christianity was entrenched in the Roman psyche by this point. To support my claim, Marcus Aurelius (back in about 170AD) already expressed his concern at the growing influence of Christianity upon the legions and its attendant demoralizing effect when it came to pitched battle. Furthermore, the catalogue of persecution has been exaggerated as the Romans were fairly tolerant to religion as long as it wasn't considered 'subversive', therefore, the cult was hardly wiped out by the actions of various administrative jurisdictions (see Pliny's letter to Titus).

    It has been suggested that Christians made up approximately 10-25% of the population by 307AD, and remembering that the Roman world contained an extensive pantheon of Gods, this is quite a large demographic.
    Last edited by Blues63; 22nd December 2017 at 12:02 PM.
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    Master political analyst Dittohead not!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blues63 View Post
    The spread of, and the religious hegemony of Christianity would have eventually occurred in my opinion. Nearly sixty years after the Milvian bridge, Julian the Apostate failed with his conservative policies to restore the old pantheon and I believe that Christianity was entrenched in the Roman psyche by this point. Too support my claim, Marcus Aurelius (back in about 170AD) already expressed his concern at the growing influence of Christianity upon the legions and its attendant demoralizing effect when it came to pitched battle. Furthermore, the catalogue of persecution has been exaggerated as the Romans were fairly tolerant to religion as long as it wasn't considered 'subversive', therefore, the cult was hardly wiped out by the actions of various administrative jurisdictions (see Pliny's letter to Titus).

    It has been suggested that Christians made up approximately 10-25% of the population by 307AD, and remembering that the Roman world contained an extensive pantheon of Gods, this is quite a large demographic.
    Fairly large, and yet there were many competing gods in the pantheon. I wonder what happened to them? None of them seem to have made it to Europe, at least not after the fall of the Roman Empire.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    .....how might today's world be different?




    Invitation to speculation.

    Read more about the battle here
    Mr. Dittohead,

    Christianity would have still won the day. Hellenism was waning, and Christianity was rising in the time of Constantine. Constantine's decision to make Christianity the official Roman religion was not out of conviction, but rather, a political move because of the growing influence of the Christians.

    It would have changed the dynamics of the Roman empire, however. The one important thing that Constantine did was relocate the capital of Rome to Bysantium, and the focus of the Empire to the east. Perhaps the Persian Empire would have made inroads into the eastern empire, and changed the shape of the middle east today.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blues63 View Post
    The spread of, and the religious hegemony of Christianity would have eventually occurred in my opinion. Nearly sixty years after the Milvian bridge, Julian the Apostate failed with his conservative policies to restore the old pantheon and I believe that Christianity was entrenched in the Roman psyche by this point. Too support my claim, Marcus Aurelius (back in about 170AD) already expressed his concern at the growing influence of Christianity upon the legions and its attendant demoralizing effect when it came to pitched battle. Furthermore, the catalogue of persecution has been exaggerated as the Romans were fairly tolerant to religion as long as it wasn't considered 'subversive', therefore, the cult was hardly wiped out by the actions of various administrative jurisdictions (see Pliny's letter to Titus).

    It has been suggested that Christians made up approximately 10-25% of the population by 307AD, and remembering that the Roman world contained an extensive pantheon of Gods, this is quite a large demographic.
    Mr. Blues,

    If you have not done so already, I suggest you read "Julian" by Gore Vidal. A fictional novel, but based on fact, and one which Vidal spent a lot of time researching.

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    The Un-Holy One The Man's Avatar
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    If that happened, would ORTHODOX Christianity have developed? Would Byzantine Greece be Orthodox?

    And, as consequence, would Russia, Ukraine, and Belarus?

    Many are unaware of this, over there, let alone out here in the West, but, before the now Saint Prince Vladimir I went to Crimea to be baptized by the Greeks to become Russia's first Orthodox ruler and later Christianize the whole place

    he had also received a Muslim delegation, from Baghdad or wherever, who also offered him THEIR faith

    One man's decision back then meant that all the Eastern Slavic people today are Orthodox, rather than Muslim.

    Russia, Ukraine, and Belarus could have been Muslim today, easily. Imagine that, for a second, 200 million Muslims, on Europe's doorstep. Possibly with nuclear weapons, just as Russia is today.

    Scared yet?
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Man View Post
    If that happened, would ORTHODOX Christianity have developed? Would Byzantine Greece be Orthodox?

    And, as consequence, would Russia, Ukraine, and Belarus?

    Many are unaware of this, over there, let alone out here in the West, but, before the now Saint Prince Vladimir I went to Crimea to be baptized by the Greeks to become Russia's first Orthodox ruler and later Christianize the whole place

    he had also received a Muslim delegation, from Baghdad or wherever, who also offered him THEIR faith

    One man's decision back then meant that all the Eastern Slavic people today are Orthodox, rather than Muslim.

    Russia, Ukraine, and Belarus could have been Muslim today, easily. Imagine that, for a second, 200 million Muslims, on Europe's doorstep. Possibly with nuclear weapons, just as Russia is today.

    Scared yet?
    Mr. Man,

    On the otherhand, if Rome had not concentrated on the eastern empire, they would have not kept the Persian Empire in check, and maybe Islam would look a lot different.
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    Member allegoricalfact's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    .....how might today's world be different?




    Invitation to speculation.

    Read more about the battle here

    It may not have been Christianity and it might not have been so brutal but Rome was having trouble with 'revolutionaries' or rather critics from out of the Temples as well as abroad. They wanted a state religion to rule by mind ( God = Gov) as opposed to the sword and be rid of the troublesome Mystics and other Wise critics of Empirical folly. Rome's Christ was just a mish mash of everyone's favorite man-gods, though they being misogynists, ditched our goddess ( Sophia) and replaced her with an initiation rite ( breath) - But it seems that a cult of literalist Christians (as opposed to the gnostics of the Christian Mystery religion) had already been seen to be the answer for Rome.

    I suppose that Constantine being a monster of monsters was surrounded by like minded monsters - monsters who would foist dogma upon the world out of one which was free thinking.

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