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Thread: Putin's next target: Belarus

  1. #31
    The Un-Holy One The Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigLeRoy View Post
    I guess we can't really blame them for that all those years they were part of the Soviet Union, or before that, part of the Czarist Russian Empire, can we? I suppose we COULD blame them for not rising up and overthrowing the dictator Lukashenko, who is, quite frankly, a RIDICULOUS man. But is that fair?
    Lukashenko is an interesting guy... He basically just preserved the Soviet system in Belarus. The collective farms, the KGB (including the old name lol), the death penalty (they still shoot people there, firing squad). And, actually, many people from there claim that it is working for them... Belarus is better off than Russia, on many factors. They have better roads. Their agricultural sector outperforms Russia's (as I said in OP), Belarusian dairy products DOMINATE the Russian market, most milk, cheese, and butter in Russian supermarkets comes from Belarus. Russian producers cannot match either their quality or their prices. Supposedly, their police ain't as corrupt either lol

    And the smartest thing he did, Lukashenko?

    When Russia banned gambling everywhere in the country except in a few small, exclusive "gaming zones" (in Kaliningrad, in the South, in Krasnodar and now also Crimea; and in Far East, in Vladivostok, which is mainly for Chinese tourists anyway), Lukashenko established huge casinos in Minsk, where many, many Russians now go to play, Minsk is now Russian Las Vegas


    Some of biggest Russian stars, like the comic Maxim Galkin

    perform in those casinos, attracting more guests there

    That was actually one of the times Lukashenko REALLY pissed off Putin, when he crossed him like this, with the casinos lol

  2. #32
    The Un-Holy One The Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Knuckles View Post
    I also think that if people in onion dome buildings, who speak Slavic languages, have big black beards and go to Eastern Orthodox churches say "we want self-determination and liberty", then they should get it.

    Despite what their hyper-militarized neighbors say about them having a "natural, traditional right" to ram a boot down on their neck.
    I agree. And Crimea also deserves self-determination. And Donbass. And Abkhazia, my homeland. And Checnya, and Palestine, and Scotland, Northern Ireland, Catalonia, Texas, Alaska, Hawaii, Quebec, and anyone else who ever wants it. I am all for self-determination, for everyone
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  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Man View Post
    I am all for self-determination, for everyone
    Better rid the world of weapons, then. Otherwise there will always be violent tensions over the question of self-determination, which often has to be won and/or defended.
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  4. #34
    The Un-Holy One The Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasselas View Post
    Better rid the world of weapons, then. Otherwise there will always be violent tensions over the question of self-determination, which often has to be won and/or defended.
    True...

  5. #35
    Human Bean KnotaFrayed's Avatar
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    There is a lot for anyone to study regarding the situation and history.

    One place anyone might begin with, is the question of why these former Soviet Union states became independent, if the suggestion that those mentioned did not really desire that, way back in 1991?

    As already pointed out, there are strategic and economic reasons for both independence and why Putin would want to re-annex at least some of them.

    Perhaps if we are truly believers in "the people" being the deciders, via democratic means (vote) all we can really do is support the process of allowing them to decide, by working to ensure any elections are NOT rigged, inclusive of any desire of our own, to try to influence them in any direction. The only other thing short of military intervention, would be to do as we have done, which is to use sanctions as a means to try to halt potential military actions to do things like re-annex former Soviet states against their will (if that is the case). First I think, would be to try to get an accurate vote of what the people want so they are not being forced against their will to remain an independent state or to be re-absorbed by Russia (the remainder of the former Soviet Union). Currently, although Russia is not totally cut off from direct access to western Europe, having less remote direct borders with western Europe, may be deemed to be strategically advantageous to Russia and a reason for wanting to "take back" states that became independent when the Soviet Union, broke up.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-Soviet_states

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common...pendent_States

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collec...y_Organization
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  6. #36
    Human Bean KnotaFrayed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Man View Post
    I agree. And Crimea also deserves self-determination. And Donbass. And Abkhazia, my homeland. And Checnya, and Palestine, and Scotland, Northern Ireland, Catalonia, Texas, Alaska, Hawaii, Quebec, and anyone else who ever wants it. I am all for self-determination, for everyone
    There are many First People of the Americas, that would like the same.....even from, some of those that went on to want the same, from others.

    Perhaps the billion dollar question for humanity is, when will humans stop takeovers of other humans?
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  7. #37
    The Un-Holy One The Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnotaFrayed View Post
    There is a lot for anyone to study regarding the situation and history.

    One place anyone might begin with, is the question of why these former Soviet Union states became independent, if the suggestion that those mentioned did not really desire that, way back in 1991?

    As already pointed out, there are strategic and economic reasons for both independence and why Putin would want to re-annex at least some of them.

    Perhaps if we are truly believers in "the people" being the deciders, via democratic means (vote) all we can really do is support the process of allowing them to decide, by working to ensure any elections are NOT rigged, inclusive of any desire of our own, to try to influence them in any direction. The only other thing short of military intervention, would be to do as we have done, which is to use sanctions as a means to try to halt potential military actions to do things like re-annex former Soviet states against their will (if that is the case). First I think, would be to try to get an accurate vote of what the people want so they are not being forced against their will to remain an independent state or to be re-absorbed by Russia (the remainder of the former Soviet Union). Currently, although Russia is not totally cut off from direct access to western Europe, having less remote direct borders with western Europe, may be deemed to be strategically advantageous to Russia and a reason for wanting to "take back" states that became independent when the Soviet Union, broke up.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-Soviet_states

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common...pendent_States

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collec...y_Organization
    There are many questions that were not properly worked out in 1991...

    I know that after Crimea, many in Kazakhstan got nervous too, for example. Their Northern regions have heavily ethnic Russian populations. And Belarus too, of course.

    There are also issues with Moldova, look up Transnistria and Gagauzia. Lots of stuff, really...

  8. #38
    Veteran Member Dr.Knuckles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Man View Post
    I agree. And Crimea also deserves self-determination. And Donbass. And Abkhazia, my homeland. And Checnya, and Palestine, and Scotland, Northern Ireland, Catalonia, Texas, Alaska, Hawaii, Quebec, and anyone else who ever wants it. I am all for self-determination, for everyone
    People of Crimea and Donbass certainly should have self- determination. By voting though. Not murder and paramilitary thugs.

  9. #39
    Nuisance Factor Yeti 8 Jungle Swing Champion, YetiSports 4 - Albatross Overload Champion, YetiSports7 - Snowboard FreeRide Champion, Alu`s Revenge Champion boontito's Avatar
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    Putin's next target: Belarus

    Trump's next target: Bella's puss
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  10. #40
    Radical Centrist BigLeRoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasselas View Post
    I don't think that was the claim. It was more that Europeans had no business attempting to interfere because that area is outside its historical sphere. That's not the same as saying Russia somehow has a right to Belarus.

    I wonder about Poland, which is distinctly Catholic but has been dominated by Russia for some parts of it's history. What would Huffington do with that?
    Huntington, not Huffington. And Huntington was very clear on Poland: It is very much a Western country. As you note, Poland is CATHOLIC. Well, Catholicism IS one major component of Western Christianity, along with (of course) Protestantism. There really IS a large ideological gulf between Western Christianity (Catholicism/Protestantism) and Eastern Orthodox Christianity, that shows up in myriad and often unexpected areas. For example: I once had a book (a student probably absconded with it) titled The History of Hell, about the different conceptions and visions of Hell down through time and across different cultures. And the Western vision of Hell, and this is true of BOTH Catholicism and Protestantism, is much like a Hieronymus Bosch painting: sheer madness, with AWFUL things going on everywhere around you, cavorting demons, fire and brimstone, and etc. and etc. The Eastern Orthodox conception of Hell is RADICALLY different: they think of Hell as ETERNAL solitary confinement, being cut off from EVERY other conscious entity in the Universe.....FOREVER.

    That Russia dominated Poland for some periods of history matters not a whit here. Poland dominated Russia for a brief period when Poland was the more powerful state. Russia dominated Finland for a period, and Finland is also very much Western. During the Cold War, the Soviet Union had several satellite countries that were Western countries: not just Poland, but East Germany, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, and of course the Baltic Republics (which were actually incorporated into the Soviet Union itself, something the United States and our Western allies NEVER recognized). I.e., the Iron Curtain was in the WRONG place. Huntington spends several fascinating pages discussing the Eastern boundary of Western civilization. The southern part of that border interestingly coincides with the division between the Eastern Roman Empire and the Western Roman Empire that was established by the Emperor Diocletian in the late 3rd century AD (shortly before Constantine and the Christianization of the Empire). And Huntington thought that this was the origin of that border. I always point out to my students that I think Huntington was WRONG about this, that this border actually extends MUCH further back in time. To the east of the border during the Neolithic and Bronze Age, you had pastoral nomadic groups; to the west, you had settled agriculturalists. It is, thus, a profoundly important border in cultural geography that goes back some five thousand years.

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