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Thread: Burying Lenin

  1. #1
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    Burying Lenin



    Moscow, April 20, Interfax - Draft legislation submitted to the Russian State Duma on Thursday proposes a legal mechanism regulating the burial of Vladimir Lenin's remains, State Duma member Vladimir Sysoyev (the Liberal Democratic Party of Russia), one of the bill's sponsors, told Interfax.

    "We propose making relevant amendments to the existing law on burials and funeral business," Sysoyev told on Thursday.

    "Our draft legislation contains a legal mechanism for reburial of Vladimir Ilyich Lenin's remains. The rules, the timeline, and the burial place must be specified by the government, subject to a decision by an interdepartmental commission," he explained.

    The bill was brought before the State Duma on Thursday afternoon, Sysoyev said.

    However, no such bill has been registered in the State Duma database at this point, an Interfax correspondent said.
    Duma members propose bill to regulate burial of Lenin's body

    A bunch of members from the LDPR (which, by the way, contrary to its name, is neither liberal nor especially democratic; but rather far right ultranationalists led by the infamous Vladimir Zhirinovsky) introduced this bill.

    Among them is Ivan Sukharev

    who pushed a similar bill in December 2015: Bill Introduced in Russian State Duma to Bury Lenin

    It seems to be a personally important issue to him, he spoke out on it back in January too: UAWire - Duma Deputy: We Need To Bury Lenin

    Maybe his relatives suffered from the Bolsheviks... I have no idea.

    Anyhow, that 2015 bill failed, predictably. This one likely won't pass either.

    Putin's United Russia says won't support it, as it will just pointlessly divide and polarize society: United Russia not to support legislation on Lenin's reburial as it splits society - Duma deputy

    The Communist Party, of course, are decrying it as a part of some "attack" upon all of them, as a party, for criticizing the government lately, in the Duma: Lenin reburial information attack on Communist Party - party

    58% of Russians apparently support burying Lenin, today; versus 31%, who think he should stay where he is, in the Mausoleum: Over half of Russians believe that Lenin should be buried - poll

    At the same time, majority (57%) still see his role in Russian history in a positive light

    Only 14% would support taking down the Lenin monuments around the country, like the Ukrainians did: Lenin may be dead, but his popularity is alive and kicking | Russia Beyond The Headlines

    For the Church, it is also a complicated question. The Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia, which represents diaspora congregations here in the West, many of which were born of refugees fleeing the terrors of Lenin's Bolshevik Revolution from 1917 onwards, want him buried and the Mausoleum itself demolished, period: Why itís high time to bury Lenin

    Meanwhile, the home Church, back in the Motherland itself, also agree with that, but they want to still wait for a broader consensus in society on this issue: Russian Orthodox Church wants to bury Lenin's body

    The Church hates Lenin, no question about it. They have canonized to Sainthood and Holy Martyrhood many of his victims, including the Romanov Royal Family and, more recently, their personal physician, who refused to abandon or betray them and was executed alongside them by the Red bastards: From Dr. to St.

    But, for now, the Commies retain enough support in Russia to remain the second biggest party in the Duma, the parliament. Enough, in fact, to create serious social tensions and potential unrest over any "desecration" of Lenin's mummy... The Church knows this. It has plenty of supporters too, but it has no interest in seeing their hardliners clashing in the streets with angry Communists, possibly escalating into a new civil war or something. Instability is good for nobody, certainly not over some fucking corpse that's not going anywhere anyway...

    Waiting is the best policy. The Communist base is big, NOW, but shrinking. They are mainly older people, with nostalgia for the Soviet era. They are ageing and dying off.

    Modern youth did not grow up like them, in Soviet Union, watching Lenin glorified in movies and everywhere and his Civil War enemies maligned and demonized.

    They, instead, have grown up on movies like "Admiral" (2008), about Admiral Alexander Kolchak, a monarchist officer who ruled Siberia during the Civil War and fought the Commies to his very death.

    He is portrayed by famous Russian actor Konstantin Khabensky, who is much more handsome than Kolchak himself was in real life lol

    Most powerful episode, to me, is when he takes his Oath and his, mainly Cossack, troops kneel down in front of him in admiration

    Apparently, this actually happened.

    In any case, he is presented, rather than as a cowardly traitor and bloodthirsty tyrant, as in the average Soviet film; as almost like King Leonidas of Sparta from "300" lol A noble, mighty hero, who sacrificed his life defending Siberia, and all of Russia, from the Red Plague...

    There are monuments to Kolchak now, in Siberian cities


    And, here is a ceremony at the memorial of Baron Piotr Vrangel, the White (monarchist) general who commanded all the anti-Communist forces in Southern Russia back then


    It is no longer taboo to express respect, admiration, and appreciation for the White Guard and what they stood for. To the consternation of many old Communists, I might add lol

    Things are changing. I believe the Commies will gradually lose support, in future. Lenin will be taken out of the Mausoleum and put, finally, to rest.

    And then, comes the next issue: the Mausoleum itself and what to do with it.

    To many Russians, that building holds, on its own, much more historic and sentimental significance than the cadaver being currently kept inside it.

    Red Army troops march past the Mausoleum (and Stalin and other bigwigs on the balcony atop it) to fight the Nazis, in 1941

    and in 1945, to the steps of the Mausoleum they threw down the flags of the vanquished enemy

    This is something every Russian knows and remembers. It's in the textbooks in the movies...

    Since WWII, it has been the traditional perch of the Commander-in-Chief during military parades and other events



    Even in the post-Soviet period, Yeltsin observed military parades on Red Square from the Mausoleum


    Not Putin though, strangely enough he has always avoided the Mausoleum. They put up some temporary stand for him every for May 9th and such, where he seats and stands with officers and veterans. He doesn't like the Mausoleum. I don't really blame him either, standing atop another man's tomb to watch a parade is... creepy, frankly. To put it mildly...

    But so is the presence itself of a mummified corpse on the nation's central square, which costs Russian taxpayers millions of dollars every year for high tech equipment to preserve it in there... There are many, mostly young, Russians who agree with me on this.

  2. #2
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    Bring Lenin's mummy to the room of Mummies in Egyptian Museum in Cairo..... So death will be flashy for Lenin's remain with ancient pharaoes....... And let's become Lenin's mausoleum something more sexy....
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    Quote Originally Posted by galatin View Post
    Bring Lenin's mummy to the room of Mummies in Egyptian Museum in Cairo..... So death will be flashy for Lenin's remain with ancient pharaoes....... And let's become Lenin's mausoleum something more sexy....
    Or the British Museum, they got many mummies too lol

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    Hmm, apparently, there were 4 United Russia MPs behind this bill and two from LDPR: Goodbye Lenin? Russian lawmakers try to tweak law to get him buried | Latest News & Updates at Daily News & Analysis

    But three of the URers are now withdrawing their support, after the rebuke from higher-ups in the party: UNITED RUSSIA DENIED THE IDEA OF BURIAL OF LENIN AFTER MANAGEMENT COMMENTS

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    Quote Originally Posted by galatin View Post
    Bring Lenin's mummy to the room of Mummies in Egyptian Museum in Cairo..... So death will be flashy for Lenin's remain with ancient pharaoes....... And let's become Lenin's mausoleum something more sexy....
    I doubt Egyptians would care to be host to lenin's mummy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by labrea View Post
    I doubt Egyptians would care to be host to lenin's mummy.
    Personally, if the Commies still want to keep him on display, I'd create a museum of Bolshevik crimes (Collectivization; Dekulakization; Decossackization; mass murders of the nobility, merchants, intelligentsia, Tsarist officers, and members of the clergy, and Lenin's early concentration camps, like Solovki, the beginning of the GULag; etc), and put the damn mummy in there... Make him rest in shame, rather than adoration...
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    Well commies did not do anything good to Russia, Russia would be nowdays much more powerful if they would have killed communists before their revolution. Lenin is just jewish asshole, they should dumb his body to swamp.

    I did some calculations based on a Russia without the population shocks of the wars, Stalinism or Communism. Keep in mind that before World War I, Russia had a far higher birthrate than countries in the west, its demographic trends were most comparable to those of Serbia, Bulgaria and Romania, below is a comparison of births per 1,000 in 1914.

    1914
    Russia 44
    Italy 32.4
    Austria 31.3
    Germany 28.3
    Australia 27.5
    USA 27.2
    Denmark 25.6
    Norway 25.4
    UK 24.3
    Belgium 22.9
    France 19.0

    A better comparison is the 1906-1910 average

    Russia 45.4
    Bulgaria 42.1
    Romania 40.3
    Hungary 36.7
    Austria 33.6
    Spain 33.6
    Italy 32.4
    Germany 31.7
    Finland 31.0
    Netherlands 29.6
    Denmark 28.2
    Netherlands 29.6
    Scotland 27.6
    Australia 26.7
    New Zealand 26.6
    Norway 26.3
    England & Wales 26.2
    Switzerland 26.0
    Belgium 24.7
    Ireland 23.4
    France 19.9

    Russia did have a higher mortality rate, however its rate of annual average increase was still higher than countries with net immigration (New Zealand, Australia, Germany).

    NATURAL INCREASE PER YEAR RATE 1906-1910
    Bulgaria 1.8%
    New Zealand 1.7%
    Russia 1.7%
    Australia 1.6%
    Denmark 1.5%
    Netherlands 1.5%
    Finland 1.4%
    Germany 1.4%
    Romania 1.4%
    Serbia 1.4%
    Norway 1.3%
    England & Wales 1.2%
    Hungary 1.2%
    Scotland 1.2%
    Austria 1.1%
    Italy 1.1%
    Sweden 1.1%
    Switzerland 1.0%
    Belgium 0.9%
    Spain 0.9%
    Ireland 0.6%
    France 0.1%

    According to the 1897 census the Russian Empire had 125.6 million people, by 1916 that figure had risen to 181.5 million.

    If Russia's population had continued growing at a normal pace, following the trajectory of the Balkans, the population would have reached 255 million by 1950 and 300 million by 1975. That is based on the natural growth rates found in Poland and the Balkans at the time. If the country undergoes a rapid decline in birthrates just as most of Europe beginning in the the late 1960s, growth would slow down and eventually be negative by 2015, however this would only begin within the last few years. The population would still be 355 million in 2015, making it larger than the USA.

    On the other hand, we have to consider that before the war, Russia had a very high total fertility rate, that was among the highest in Europe. It also had high levels of illiteracy and infant mortality (The Grand Duchy of Finland was the exception to this). However, its rates were not dissimilar to those of Serbia, Bulgaria or Romania at the time. The Soviet Union caused a great social upheaval with and if Russia without the wars remains religious and more socially conservative for longer it is possible to have a population of 455 million by 2014.

    Before 1914, overseas emigration from was increasing, but nearly half of this emigration was Jewish. Due to the pogroms, Jews increasingly opted to quit the country, overwhelmingly choosing New York City as their destination. However, smaller numbers moved to other US Cities, Argentina, Canada, the UK, France, Germany. Very small numbers to Palestine in Ottoman Turkey too. Despite this large migratory movement, the birthrate of the Jews in the Russian Empire was so high that their population rose from 5.2 million in 1897 to around 6.9 million in 1913. Not surprising in the majority were Orthodox Jews, living in insular communities of the Pale Settlement. The c Soviet Union secularized and assimilated the Jewish community to a large extent causing them to adopt Russian as their language rather than Yiddish and causing birthrates to decline.

    The second largest group emigrating from the Russian Empire were the Poles. Poles accounted for just over 1/4th of all emigration from Russian Empire during the pre-war period. They emigrated primarily to the USA, and in smaller numbers to Canada, South America and Eastern Germany (mostly as seasonal farm workers to the latter). Lithuanians were around 10% of all emigrants, Finns constituted another 10%, and ethnic Germans 5% of all emigrants from the Empire. The ethnic Germans like Jews were overwhelmingly permanent emigrants who left the country in family groups, whereas around the majority Poles, Lithuanians and Finns were single males, and nearly 1/3rd of these returned after a sojourn in the US, Canada or Argentina. Ethnic Russians, Ukrainians and Belarussians accounted for less than 5% of all overseas emigrants from the empire. The vast majority of Ukrainian emigrants from Europe during this period were from Austria rather than Russia.

    Rather than move overseas, ethnic Russians, Ukrainians and Belarussians moved eastwards, to Siberia and even Manchuria. These groups were migrating in droves to Siberia after the 1880s with the population there growing from 4.3 million in 1885 to 12.8 million in 1915. The Trans-Siberian Railway especially spurring emigration to the Russian Far East. Migration to the East increased after the completion of the railway and between 1906-1913 some 3.44 million settlers moved to Siberia, cities like Vladivostok doubled in population between 1910 and 1915. American contemporaries compared Siberia to the American and Canadian West.

    More important than loss of population in the 30s and 40s is the decline in birth rates due to a whole array of reasons. Namely that poor, illiterate peasant populations grow a lot faster than literate urban ones, and the Soviet era was a time of intense urbanization. Also, the influence of orthodox Christianity was weakened. The average ages of marriage and childbearing increased. One thing that was not a factor was an inability of Soviet agriculture to support a larger population.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by curiousou View Post
    ... Lenin is just jewish asshole ...
    Fascinating ... - indeed Lenins mother Mary had German-Swedish-Jewish-Russian roots. First I thought this could had made her to a citizen of the USA - but then I found out she learned English, French and German on her own - and she spoke not US-American. She was by the way an European noble too: German, Celtic, Viking or whatever other kind of noble.



    PS: If Germans had the same population growth as the Palestinians have since 1864, then today would live about a billion Germans and 50 million of this Germans would be Jews.
    Last edited by zaangalewa; 21st April 2017 at 02:13 AM.

  9. #9
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    Yes, Lenin was Jewish by mother, and, in fact, many leading Bolsheviks were Jews, like Trotsky (Bronstein), Bukharin, Kaganovich in Ukraine, etc. None of them were religious though, all atheists.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Man View Post
    Yes, Lenin was Jewish by mother, and, in fact, many leading Bolsheviks were Jews, like Trotsky (Bronstein), Bukharin, Kaganovich in Ukraine, etc. None of them were religious though, all atheists.
    Ironic given the intense level of anti-Semitism in Russia, pre-.....during...and post-USSR...to today.
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