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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaryAnne View Post
    Ok, here is another view. I listened to a long discussion about Canada stealing our auto plants.

    First they moved to Mexico, then Canada So,some of the things Trump is saying are right.

    And this discussian was with an Auto worker.

    The Schools and Colleges after years of neglect are now rushing to provide the skills that are needed now.

    Steven Brill just had an excellent discussion about what has happened to our economy the last 50 years on Brian Seler.rerun will be on at 3PM,my time. Really worth listening to. He also heavily criticized the Media.

    Thanks to all who gave answers. My original intent was to start a discussion. Not lay blame, this is a problem we need to solve.

    We also need to lay the pressure on our do nothings in Congress. If they are not willing to work and compromise they need to go. Both parties.
    But there is a but….. the ecomical level of Canada is close to the one of the US…… So why is it better to produce in Canada and to delocate factories there ? Is it a structura problem which leads to choose Canada instead of the US ? BEfore deciding very high tariffs you need to know where is the core of the problem because otherwise you will get only more expensive products or products less competitive made locally ?
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  2. #32
    Veteran Member MaryAnne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by galatin View Post
    But there is a but….. the ecomical level of Canada is close to the one of the US…… So why is it better to produce in Canada and to delocate factories there ? Is it a structura problem which leads to choose Canada instead of the US ? BEfore deciding very high tariffs you need to know where is the core of the problem because otherwise you will get only more expensive products or products less competitive made locally ?
    Why do you think people like Auto workers are angry? That same Auto worker blames Canada and Mexico on the loss of their plants in places like Detroit and the Midwest. Right or wrong that is what I hear,over and over, Canada protects their Industries,too.

    The core of the problem is all theses countries that do the same thing. There is a great deal of truth in what Trump says, but he is not rational enough to sit down and solve problems.
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  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaryAnne View Post
    Why do you think people like Auto workers are angry? That same Auto worker blames Canada and Mexico on the loss of their plants in places like Detroit and the Midwest. Right or wrong that is what I hear,over and over, Canada protects their Industries,too.

    The core of the problem is all theses countries that do the same thing. There is a great deal of truth in what Trump says, but he is not rational enough to sit down and solve problems.
    What I consider is performance, although when you have like emerging countries have a weak economy, you try at least in a first stage to protect them unteneighbors. So if you protect local producers from foreign competitors who have the same costs, you just encourage lame ducks to go on as before, without becoming creative andmaking products where they can make real money. When I heard for example that Kitchenaid pays workers USD 8/hour I ask myself is it worth to still manufacture such products when there is plenty of opportunity to do other things keeping such a margin that you can offer more than starving salaries and make good profits ? Comparisons must be with what a country can do to enhance its rofatibality and not in just looking at explanations about low wages from abroad etc.…. But for that you must invest in training people, but the US more than many other countries have a lot of resources to do a magnificent jobs. So it is a question of will……

  4. #34
    Bad Policy Good Politics DebateDrone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaryAnne View Post
    Ok, here is another view. I listened to a long discussion about Canada stealing our auto plants.

    First they moved to Mexico, then Canada So,some of the things Trump is saying are right.

    And this discussian was with an Auto worker.

    The Schools and Colleges after years of neglect are now rushing to provide the skills that are needed now.

    Steven Brill just had an excellent discussion about what has happened to our economy the last 50 years on Brian Seler.rerun will be on at 3PM,my time. Really worth listening to. He also heavily criticized the Media.

    Thanks to all who gave answers. My original intent was to start a discussion. Not lay blame, this is a problem we need to solve.

    We also need to lay the pressure on our do nothings in Congress. If they are not willing to work and compromise they need to go. Both parties.
    How did Canada or Mexico steal US jobs? America companies willingly left.

    Trump has not said one goddamn thing that is true about US Trade. It is absolutely ridiculous to believe US companies are being taken advantage of by Canada or Mexico.

    American business is giving their right arms so they can have access to Chinese markets. The US government is worried about the technology US business are giving to the Chinese, American business are not. US Business wants the sales.

    Short-term...short sighted.

    If Trump wanted to keep technology out of the hands of our enemies...he would rescind all of his immigration quotas on special skills aliens.

    America is loosing its technological edge.

    Trump is in Singapore trying to keep a moron from his 70 year old nuclear technology while the rest of the world is getting technologically exponentially more advanced.

    That is what you get when you send a golf course builder to lead a major government. You get two tech morons talking about 'peace in Korea'
    Thanks from Ian Jeffrey

  5. #35
    Veteran Member MaryAnne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by galatin View Post
    What I consider is performance, although when you have like emerging countries have a weak economy, you try at least in a first stage to protect them unteneighbors. So if you protect local producers from foreign competitors who have the same costs, you just encourage lame ducks to go on as before, without becoming creative andmaking products where they can make real money. When I heard for example that Kitchenaid pays workers USD 8/hour I ask myself is it worth to still manufacture such products when there is plenty of opportunity to do other things keeping such a margin that you can offer more than starving salaries and make good profits ? Comparisons must be with what a country can do to enhance its rofatibality and not in just looking at explanations about low wages from abroad etc.…. But for that you must invest in training people, but the US more than many other countries have a lot of resources to do a magnificent jobs. So it is a question of will……
    Henry Ford paid his workers $5. When asked why he wanted his workers to be able to but the Autos they built.

    Maybe that is why Kitchenaid stays. You want a quality product you buy Kitchaid.

    I just bought a new Food Processor because I knew it was quality.
    Last edited by MaryAnne; 10th June 2018 at 09:33 AM.

  6. #36
    Veteran Member MaryAnne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DebateDrone View Post
    How did Canada or Mexico steal US jobs? America companies willingly left.

    Trump has not said one goddamn thing that is true about US Trade. It is absolutely ridiculous to believe US companies are being taken advantage of by Canada or Mexico.

    American business is giving their right arms so they can have access to Chinese markets. The US government is worried about the technology US business are giving to the Chinese, American business are not. US Business wants the sales.

    Short-term...short sighted.

    If Trump wanted to keep technology out of the hands of our enemies...he would rescind all of his immigration quotas on special skills aliens.

    America is loosing its technological edge.



    Trump is in Singapore trying to keep a moron from his 70 year old nuclear technology while the rest of the world is getting technologically exponentially more advanced.

    That is what you get when you send a golf course builder to lead a major government. You get two tech morons talking about 'peace in Korea'
    I am posting what Auto workers think and say. You just went off on a tirade about Trump. I am telling you this is why so many workers voted for Trump.

    Democrats have become Special Interests. The average worker does not want to hear that. Trump is looking like he cares. You can talk about how awful Trump is until hell freezes over but are losing the votes while you do this.

    Democrats need a comprehensive voice about what needs to be done. I am trying to get through to our side.

    We have been losing our Technology for years. Trump is not fixing that.
    Last edited by MaryAnne; 10th June 2018 at 09:34 AM.

  7. #37
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    Yes but workers in Switzerland and Germany get much more than USD 8/hour and companies make anyway profits with high quality products like Miele or others. So what is wrong with Kitchenaid ? Quality is present even if the product is the same since over 60 years, (i have still the old Kitchenaid my mother bought in 1953 !) but workers are paid at a miserable level, which make them not able to buy quality products ?

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaryAnne View Post
    It is simply a discussion of Pros and Cons.

    This has to do with Tariffs and Subsidies.

    No matter what we think of Trump my question is about those subjects

    For at least 50 years now the average worker has felt cheated. NAFTA made it worse in their minds. We can go after how wrong they are, but that does not solve the problems of those who feel cheated.

    We do know many Countries cheat with subsidies and other things. Many cheat by money manipulation.

    When a worker loses his good paying job because his Company goes over seas it does no good to explain to them about Global expansion.

    So what is wrong with no Subsidies or Tariffs at all?

    Do not start with defensive Politics.just explain why Subsidies and Tariffs are good. There will always be Special Interests that will be hurt.
    Aren't the subsidies and tariffs, the reason workers feel cheated in the first place?

    Also, how great of an effect do subsidies and tariffs have on corporations contracting factory work out to foreign factories and their workers, or building factories in other nations, that hire foreign workers, to make their products, based on disparate economies and maximizing their bottom lines, via the cost of labor?


    I hate to keep pointing to the same old videos time and time again, but this one presents some of the hypocrisy of those who claim to be "heroes" of working people who feel cheated, even as they are cheating, working Americans.



    I think the problem is that there are workers in every country that want their leaders to "protect them" and stop them from feeling "cheated" and when you think about it, why should they not, if we put ourselves in the shoes of people born other places? The difficulty comes in trying to balance out the disparate economies, why they are disparate, (labor and environmental protections, political systems, etc.) so that everyone might be able to agree to what is fair to their workers. No agreement is going to give anyone 100% of what they want or make all people 100% happy, unless that agree down the line on everything. Then, what is the need for negotiation and agreement, but to pledge to continuing to agree, into perpetuity or for a set period of time. Even then, things can change, that affect an agreement, as well as an agreement to revise the agreement, based on those changes. Certainly, it would seem pissing people off who are only trying to do for their people, what you are trying to do for yours, leads to no improvement and perhaps something worse, for those who feel cheated.

    Americans have complained that other nations, like China, "dump" products here, undercutting American made versions of the same, based on a number of things in China that allow those products to be produced very cheaply. A part of it can be government subsidies to specific industries or product, a lack of worker protection laws, including safety (China has roughly 4 times the population of the U.S. and people need to eat there, just like they do here, but if someone gets injured or killed on the job, there is no lack of someone to take that place. There are also environmental protection laws in some nations, not in others that contribute to being able to produce products more cheaply. With no tariffs or subsidies, I would think there will still be differences in the cost of labor and that will affect the price of goods making them more attractive to markets than others, if one goes on price alone. Tariffs and subsidies, in a constantly monitored and revised agreement, can help to level playing fields for all.

    Unfortunately, some people seem to believe that "negotiation" is all about everyone else abiding by what one nation wants and giving up anything their own nations and workers desire, with regard to relative fairness.

    I don't know how, in a world of different and disparate economies and capitalists looking at cutting labor costs to maximize their profits or poor nations that have no worker or environmental protections, among other things, no tariffs or subsidies is going to level the playing field. Even if attempts to do so by international agreement are not perfect or still leave things to be desired, a lack of parameters does not seem like it would end up being fair to some and would offer a huge advantage to others. If we are a nation or a world that is concerned about humanity and its populations, then I am not sure we want to set up situations that screw some, so others can make obscene profits (an exaggeration, but in essence suggests that most people and most nations, perhaps are looking for what works for all, so that they can get the best for their own nation. That does not appear to be something that is going to work if any nation in particular or sets of nations, want a deal that leaves out the interests of all others.
    Last edited by KnotaFrayed; 10th June 2018 at 10:02 AM.
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  9. #39
    Shitposting Rank 4 Missle Command Champion johnflesh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Babba View Post
    I agree that some of our trade agreements needed to be renegotiated. But just issuing blanket tariffs is not negotiating. All he's doing is starting trade wars.
    Which leads to negotiations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnflesh View Post
    Which leads to negotiations.
    Which Trump walked out of.

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