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Thread: UN demands Russia leave Transnistria

  1. #41
    The Un-Holy One The Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Jeffrey View Post
    You realize, of course, that the Star Trek utopian future had a united Earth, and that hundreds or thousands of small states (worldwide) would likely end up involving more wars and reconstitution into large countries again, maybe larger than now? The world is too small a place anymore.
    I have no idea what will happen. I used to be optimistic about the future. But, seeing guys like Trump, Duterte, and others getting power in various countries made me much less so...
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  2. #42
    Spock of Vulcan Ian Jeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Man View Post
    I have no idea what will happen. I used to be optimistic about the future. But, seeing guys like Trump, Duterte, and others getting power in various countries made me much less so...
    I agree. The task of the current generation (which includes you and me, despite the age difference) around the world is to move away from petty local dictatorships and the like and back toward democratic systems and individual rights, bolstered by a worldwide mechanism to keep them in place. The world is not the same as it was in the late 18th century, and people need to adapt more than just accepting and using new technology. In a manner of speaking, we need a new technology of consciousness in order to adapt to changing social and political situations.

    Early American constitutional thought was concerned that the distant, central government (what Hamilton called "the general government" in the Federalist Papers) would have less concern for individual liberty and would be more likely to trample on people than the nearby state governments more directly and immediately under their collective control. However, by the 20th century it became evident that it was the other way around ... that the states were more in violation of individual rights that the U.S. government was willing and able to protect. Likewise, it is possible - though of course nothing is certain - that an international body could be more protective of individual rights than individual countries. The UN has not been good for this, as it is at most a loose confederation akin to the Articles of Confederation that failed in just a few years and required an overhaul.

    Naturally, before that can happen, we need to get rid of the "swaggering, overbearing, tin-plated dictators with delusions of g-dhood" (see Star Trek's "The Trouble With Tribbles" for the original line and context) like Trump, Putin, &c. Otherwise, we're just on a downward spiral.
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  3. #43
    Radical Centrist BigLeRoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Man View Post
    I have no idea what will happen. I used to be optimistic about the future. But, seeing guys like Trump, Duterte, and others getting power in various countries made me much less so...
    Long ago, I posted a thread on this very topic:

    We Are Now In The Age Of Tyrants
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  4. #44
    The Un-Holy One The Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Jeffrey View Post
    I agree. The task of the current generation (which includes you and me, despite the age difference) around the world is to move away from petty local dictatorships and the like and back toward democratic systems and individual rights, bolstered by a worldwide mechanism to keep them in place. The world is not the same as it was in the late 18th century, and people need to adapt more than just accepting and using new technology. In a manner of speaking, we need a new technology of consciousness in order to adapt to changing social and political situations.

    Early American constitutional thought was concerned that the distant, central government (what Hamilton called "the general government" in the Federalist Papers) would have less concern for individual liberty and would be more likely to trample on people than the nearby state governments more directly and immediately under their collective control. However, by the 20th century it became evident that it was the other way around ... that the states were more in violation of individual rights that the U.S. government was willing and able to protect. Likewise, it is possible - though of course nothing is certain - that an international body could be more protective of individual rights than individual countries. The UN has not been good for this, as it is at most a loose confederation akin to the Articles of Confederation that failed in just a few years and required an overhaul.

    Naturally, before that can happen, we need to get rid of the "swaggering, overbearing, tin-plated dictators with delusions of g-dhood" (see Star Trek's "The Trouble With Tribbles" for the original line and context) like Trump, Putin, &c. Otherwise, we're just on a downward spiral.
    Quote Originally Posted by BigLeRoy View Post
    Long ago, I posted a thread on this very topic:

    We Are Now In The Age Of Tyrants
    Only thing is... I worry about a country like Russia, in a true democratic system...

    You got something like 180 different ethnic groups, many living in own autonomous regions; various religious groups (90 million Orthodox; up to 20 million Muslims; up to 2 million into traditional Slavic paganism; maybe same number of Buddhists; up to a million Jews by some claims; half a million Catholics; hundreds of thousands of Baptists and Jehovah's Witnesses; hundreds of thousands of traditional shamanic tribespeople in remote areas of Siberia; AND millions of atheists as well, on top of that); various disputes over language (for example in Tatarstan, where ethnic Russians claim there are too many hours of Tatar language classes in schools, which their kids shouldn't have to learn; while local Tatar nationalists say there are too few classes in fact, and accuse Russians who live on their land and refuse to even try to learn their tongue of disrespecting them as a people; etc)

    There are all kinds of political forces, Slavic nationalists (which break down into Orthodox Christian religious; neo-paganist; monarchist/imperialistic; pan-Slavist; etc); various local ethnic nationalism; Communism (traditional Marxism vs. neo-Soviet nostalgism vs. anarchism vs. National Bolshevism; et al); political Islamic movements in Caucasus and Tatarstan and Bashkortostan; and so on.

    It is just too diverse a place, and with people still too unable to resolve their differences and conflicts in peaceful, civilized ways. Without a strong central figure of power, like Putin, holding all these forces in check... I have no idea what may happen there.

    It's scary, especially when you consider there are thousands of nuclear warheads in play there...
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  5. #45
    Spock of Vulcan Ian Jeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Man View Post
    Only thing is... I worry about a country like Russia, in a true democratic system...

    You got something like 180 different ethnic groups, many living in own autonomous regions; various religious groups (90 million Orthodox; up to 20 million Muslims; up to 2 million into traditional Slavic paganism; maybe same number of Buddhists; up to a million Jews by some claims; half a million Catholics; hundreds of thousands of Baptists and Jehovah's Witnesses; hundreds of thousands of traditional shamanic tribespeople in remote areas of Siberia; AND millions of atheists as well, on top of that); various disputes over language (for example in Tatarstan, where ethnic Russians claim there are too many hours of Tatar language classes in schools, which their kids shouldn't have to learn; while local Tatar nationalists say there are too few classes in fact, and accuse Russians who live on their land and refuse to even try to learn their tongue of disrespecting them as a people; etc)

    There are all kinds of political forces, Slavic nationalists (which break down into Orthodox Christian religious; neo-paganist; monarchist/imperialistic; pan-Slavist; etc); various local ethnic nationalism; Communism (traditional Marxism vs. neo-Soviet nostalgism vs. anarchism vs. National Bolshevism; et al); political Islamic movements in Caucasus and Tatarstan and Bashkortostan; and so on.

    It is just too diverse a place, and with people still too unable to resolve their differences and conflicts in peaceful, civilized ways. Without a strong central figure of power, like Putin, holding all these forces in check... I have no idea what may happen there.

    It's scary, especially when you consider there are thousands of nuclear warheads in play there...
    Sounds like you would advocate Russia split up into any (large) number of smaller countries.
    Thanks from The Man

  6. #46
    The Un-Holy One The Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Jeffrey View Post
    Sounds like you would advocate Russia split up into any (large) number of smaller countries.
    It may happen in future. Again, I have no idea anymore...

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