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Crossposted from PF.

.......................................

I did a lot of thinking about what has happened in New York State and decided to publish an opinion not based on statistics - something I rarely do. These are just my thoughts. I hope you all will read them.

To begin: I was married for seven years in Germany and during this time, gay civil unions were and are still allowed in Germany. The Germans, for all intents and purposes, view this to be the same as marriage. I never felt threatened or bothered that gays could also get married. It did not affect the quality or length of my marriage. In fact, I never really thought much about gay marriage until the right turned it into such a hot-button issue.

It seems very apparent to me that the face of our Union has changed considerably just within the last 60 years: from the integration of black Americans into the military to the Civil Rights Movement to DADT and it's repeal and now, to gay marriage. By this, I mean that our attitudes as a whole have undergone a change. And the laws passed to reflect those changes have gained full acceptance.

I thought about those Republicans in NY State and thought about what they did, and more importantly, why they did it. I thought about the fact that the most of the people in elected positions who fought for marriage equality in NY are straight. I thought about the fact that this debate has crossed over racial lines, somewhat over party lines (Diaz), but less over ideological lines. I don't view Party and Ideology as being the same thing.

So, why did those four do what they did?

First, I think those Republicans can read polls. Polling trends over the last many years show a marked change in Americans' attitudes towards "GAY". I will not list any statistics at all, but you can find many of them here. The stats indicate an ever growing acceptance of "GAY" - until we have now reached the point in time where not just a plurality but rather, the majority of the population now accepts these things, things that were extremely tabu not all to long ago. And if those stats apply to the nation generally, then it is a good bet that acceptance of gays, gays in the military and gay marriage is even much higher in a progressive state like New York.

Second, I think those Republicans in NY State are expecting a DEM wave over Ryancare in 2012 and are scared that they will lose control of the NY Senate, which is already tenuous at best: 32 R to officially 30 D, but 4 of those DEMS (the "gang of four") are actually caucusing together as "Independent Democrat". A shift of 3 or 4 State Senate seats would be enough to give the State Senate back to the Democrats. I think those Republicans realized that were this to happen and marriage equality had not been passed yet, then a Democratic controlled Senate in 2013 would be able to put out marriage equality legislation without the restrictions (or protections, as one wishes to see it) that are there now. So, I believe very strongly that the GOP in NY made a tactical move, looking at its immediate future. And in doing so, it just provided cover for other GOP members who may also be having "evolving" opinions about gay marriage. I am pretty sure that the party upper-ups already knew who would "defect" and allowed just enough to do so to get this through.

This kind of procedural tactic is actually pretty common: in March 2010, then Speaker of the House of Representatives Nancy Pelosi gave her blessing to a number of DEM defections from demographically tough swing districts during the vote on the Health Care Law.

I think that that this move was wise, for I believe strongly in the Constitution and do not think that religious institutions should have to accept something they don't want. The freedoms of religious institutions are very clearly outlined in the "Separation Clause" of the Constitution and also of course undergirded the 1st Amendment. Now, the anti-marriage equality side can argue that the very existence of gays ANYWHERE who are married forces the "Church" to accept something it doesn't want, but this is patently false, for one simple reason:

though marriage is considered a holy act by some, if not most, in terms of legality, it is the state-issued marriage certificate that counts. This is why a couple can go down to the courthouse and get married in front of a justice of the peace or court clerk and those two people will be married. They don't even need to go to a church or synagogue or mosque to buddist temple in order be legally married. Only up till recently, it was accepted that the word couple should mean "a man and a woman".

What legalizing gay marriage does is allow benefits for survivors, inheritance, allows for joint tax returns, allows for power of attorney in times of bad health or at end of life. Why should gay people not have these things?

I thought and I thought and I really thought. Why would a good portion of the American public be so virulently opposed to gays having these things?

The only answers I can come up with are: bigotry and hate.

Let's take a look at our own history.

Our Declaration of Independence contains this most famous tenet:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

But how did the Republic get around the problem of slavery? The Dec of Ind says clearly that all men are created equal, but slaves were not equal. As a matter of fact, they were assigned a ratio: 3/5. For the purpose of taxation and representation, they were considered to be just 3/5 of a person, less than a "man" and therefore the main tenet of the Declaration of Independence somehow did not apply to them. Twisted, eh?

Here:

Article 1, Section 2, Paragraph 3 of the United States Constitution: " Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons. "

The slave states were all for it, for it raised their representation in Congress but didn't raise their taxes as high. And the slaves were still slaves. Good deal. Of course this was undone by the 13th amendment and the taxation clause was changed with the 14th amendment to read:

"Representatives shall be apportioned ...counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed..."

So, we already have historical precedent in our country of change being effected and accepted.

Anyone out there still think that blacks should be enslaved and should only count as 3/5 of a person?
I doubt that anyone here really thinks this. I certainly do not.

How about the integration of blacks in the military after WWII? Keeping in mind that black Americans have served in the military since the Revolutionary War, we are looking at a long time frame before integration became a reality: around 180 years. In the Civil War, blacks fought freely on the side of the North, but not integrated. In the South, first close to the end of the War, in the spring of 1865, the Confederate Congress enacted a statute to allow the enlistment of African Americans but fewer than fifty were ever recruited.

Blacks have fought in every war since then, most notably in WWII. The list of all-black fighting units is extensive. Go take a look at it. Integration began on July 26, 1948, with Harry Truman's Executive Order 9981, just four and one half months before the Presidential Election of 1948. Most historians agree that the bulk of integration was done as of 1954, when the last all-black unit was disbanded.

The list of black Americans who have served with distinction is long. One of our great american heroes and former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Colin Powell, is a black American.

I can't imagine anyone today wanting a segregated military.
Anyone out there want a segregated military?

And just to show how courageous Truman was:

"Most civilians and military personnel opposed racial integration. One month before President Truman's Executive Order, a Gallup poll showed that 63% of American adults endorsed the separation of Blacks and Whites in the military; only 26% supported integration. A 1949 survey of white Army personnel revealed that 32% completely opposed racial integration in any form, and 61% opposed integration if it meant that Whites and Blacks would share sleeping quarters and mess halls. However, 68% of white soldiers were willing to have Blacks and Whites work together, provided they didn't share barracks or mess facilities. "

So, once again we have historical precedent in our country of change being effected and accepted.

But the reaction on the part of haters was strong: integration would destroy moral, it would weaken our national defense. The same arguments that were used against the repeal of DADT.

Similar to arguments (mostly in the South) that interracial marriage was wrong, immoral, sinful. And yet we have interracial marriage today.

Anyone out there against interracial marriage? Like these people?

Little_Rock_integration_protest-19581.jpg


Or like this person (anti-civil rights)?

anti-civil-rights1.jpg


(nice touch, the SS armband, real nice touch)

Or this person (anti-school-integration, North Carolina, 1965)?

demonstrators1.jpg


So, once again we have historical precedent in our country of change being effected and accepted.



My view
is that within 50 years this will be a forgotten thing, that marriage equality will be in all 52 states of the Union (Puerto Rico, Guam) and strengthened by national law. And that our grandchildren will ask why there was ever a battle about this to begin with.

Takers?
 
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My view is that within 50 years this will be a forgotten thing, that marriage equality will be in all 52 states of the Union (Puerto Rico, Guam) and strengthened by national law. And that our grandchildren will ask why there was ever a battle about this to begin with.

Takers?
I agree. I'd even ratchet the estimate down to 40 years.

boil070614legacy762189.jpg
 
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Bonn, I find your pics of the anti-civil rights demonstrations very interesting but I have severe difficulty relating the civil rights movement as being the same as the Gay rights movement. I completely understand the tangent relationship and some minor parallels between the two but equal no, separate yes.

I am old enough to remember segregation and when I was stationed in Biloxi Mississippi in the late 60,s I saw the old signs of "Colored only" doorways, water fountains and bathrooms. And that was only a couple years after Civil rights legislation was passed.

I recall traveling somewhere in Mississippi and there was a Black guy in or group and we stopped for beers (we were in uniform) the owner/or bartender came over to me and informed me in a whisper that the only reason he is serving all of us including "your Colored Lieutenant friend there" was because he and we were in uniform. He maded it sound as if he was doing us and our "Colored Lieutenant friend " as big favor implying or maybe he even mumbled soemthing to the extent that "Colored Lieutenant " was serving our country. That was just so Librul of hm.
 
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Bonn, I find your pics of the anti-civil rights demonstrations very interesting but I have severe difficulty relating the civil rights movement as being the same as the Gay rights movement. I completely understand the tangent relationship and some minor parallels between the two but equal no, separate yes.

I am old enough to remember segregation and when I was stationed in Biloxi Mississippi in the late 60,s I saw the old signs of "Colored only" doorways, water fountains and bathrooms. And that was only a couple years after Civil rights legislation was passed.

I recall traveling somewhere in Mississippi and there was a Black guy in or group and we stopped for beers (we were in uniform) the owner/or bartender came over to me and informed me in a whisper that the only reason he is serving all of us including "your Colored Lieutenant friend there" was because he and we were in uniform. He maded it sound as if he was doing us and our "Colored Lieutenant friend " as big favor implying or maybe he even mumbled soemthing to the extent that "Colored Lieutenant " was serving our country. That was just so Librul of hm.

Hey, good to hear from you. I understand your point. My point was to recall that much of the rhetoric that was thrown around by the "Anti-" Crowd in the 1940s-1970's in opposition to anything relating to civil rights (and I very much think that black inclusion in the military was and is indeed a civil right) very closely parallels the kind of rhetoric against anything "gay" - for the basis is the same:

The other side implies, infers or directly says that this change (blacks in the military, women voting, school integration, gays in the military) will weaken our nation, that it is a danger. The other side has more often than not used the scare of "Communism" to support their argument, for this reason, the first picture. If that doesn't work, then plain old insults - for this reason, the second picture. And some good old xenophobia thrown in - the third picture.

I am not trying to put the other side in a bad light. It does that all on its own.

The story you related is one I have personally experienced in varying forms, but the idea is the same: we will treat your black friend ok since he is with you. I doubt it has anything to do with liberal or conservative, per se, but rather, it has to do with pure stupidity. :):)
 
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I agree. I'd even ratchet the estimate down to 40 years.

boil070614legacy762189.jpg

Interesting pic, thanks for posting. Perhaps this will all go quicker than one thinks. Or it could be a real slugfest.

I sometimes wonder if an issue like this truly could spark a real, live Civil War II in our nation. From the rhetoric I often read, I sometimes get the feeling that certain people are practically itching to pick up guns and just fire at the other side. Kind of a scary thought, eh?
 
Eh, I mean...we are all humans, and we should all be treated like humans.
 
Hey, good to hear from you. I understand your point. My point was to recall that much of the rhetoric that was thrown around by the "Anti-" Crowd in the 1940s-1970's in opposition to anything relating to civil rights (and I very much think that black inclusion in the military was and is indeed a civil right) very closely parallels the kind of rhetoric against anything "gay" - for the basis is the same:

The other side implies, infers or directly says that this change (blacks in the military, women voting, school integration, gays in the military) will weaken our nation, that it is a danger. The other side has more often than not used the scare of "Communism" to support their argument, for this reason, the first picture. If that doesn't work, then plain old insults - for this reason, the second picture. And some good old xenophobia thrown in - the third picture.

I am not trying to put the other side in a bad light. It does that all on its own.

The story you related is one I have personally experienced in varying forms, but the idea is the same: we will treat your black friend ok since he is with you. I doubt it has anything to do with liberal or conservative, per se, but rather, it has to do with pure stupidity. :):)

oh yeh the Commie scare used against intergration and anything new such as floridation, polio vaccines, and yes of course racial integration since we all know that these were all Kommunista's plots convieved late at hight in the East tower of the Kremlin. sic lol

There is one element of truth in the fact that the try to point out the evils of American racial / racist situations. The CPA ( Communistichna Partyia uh Americhi ) did do a strong recuiting job getting American Blacks to join up.

I need to find a sarcasm button since that quip about Johnnie Reb bartender being a "Libul " was of course purely a sarcasm attempt on my part !!!

Just curious !! Are you really living in The FATHERLAND ? If so have you been to Württemberg or to the village of Ellwangen (Jagst ) east of Baden-Württemberg ? ?
 
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oh yeh the Commie scare used against intergration and anything new such as floridation, polio vaccines, and yes of course racial integration since we all know that these were all Kommunista's plots convieved late at hight in the East tower of the Kremlin. sic lol

There is one element of truth in the fact that the try to point out the evils of American racial / racist situations. The CPA ( Communistichna Partyia uh Americhi ) did do a strong recuiting job getting American Blacks to join up.

I need to find a sarcasm button since that quip about Johnnie Reb bartender being a "Libul " was of course purely a sarcasm attempt on my part !!!

Just curious !! Are you really living in The FATHERLAND ? If so have you been to Württemberg or to the village of Ellwangen (Jagst ) east of Baden-Württemberg ? ?

I will send you a sarcasm button for Christmas.

I live in Nordrhein-Westfalen, but my ex-wife comes from Baden Württemberg, I have been to the larger cities and towns there (Mannheim, Pforzheim, Bensheim, Weinheim, Darmstadt), but I don't recall ever being in Ellwangen.

I really dont call it the "Fatherland" - too many weird associations. The BRD will suffice, I would say....

Good to hear from you.
 
Crossposted from PF.

.......................................

I did a lot of thinking about what has happened in New York State and decided to publish an opinion not based on statistics - something I rarely do. These are just my thoughts. I hope you all will read them.

To begin: I was married for seven years in Germany and during this time, gay civil unions were and are still allowed in Germany. The Germans, for all intents and purposes, view this to be the same as marriage. I never felt threatened or bothered that gays could also get married. It did not affect the quality or length of my marriage. In fact, I never really thought much about gay marriage until the right turned it into such a hot-button issue.

It seems very apparent to me that the face of our Union has changed considerably just within the last 60 years: from the integration of black Americans into the military to the Civil Rights Movement to DADT and it's repeal and now, to gay marriage. By this, I mean that our attitudes as a whole have undergone a change. And the laws passed to reflect those changes have gained full acceptance.

I thought about those Republicans in NY State and thought about what they did, and more importantly, why they did it. I thought about the fact that the most of the people in elected positions who fought for marriage equality in NY are straight. I thought about the fact that this debate has crossed over racial lines, somewhat over party lines (Diaz), but less over ideological lines. I don't view Party and Ideology as being the same thing.

So, why did those four do what they did?

First, I think those Republicans can read polls. Polling trends over the last many years show a marked change in Americans' attitudes towards "GAY". I will not list any statistics at all, but you can find many of them here. The stats indicate an ever growing acceptance of "GAY" - until we have now reached the point in time where not just a plurality but rather, the majority of the population now accepts these things, things that were extremely tabu not all to long ago. And if those stats apply to the nation generally, then it is a good bet that acceptance of gays, gays in the military and gay marriage is even much higher in a progressive state like New York.

Second, I think those Republicans in NY State are expecting a DEM wave over Ryancare in 2012 and are scared that they will lose control of the NY Senate, which is already tenuous at best: 32 R to officially 30 D, but 4 of those DEMS (the "gang of four") are actually caucusing together as "Independent Democrat". A shift of 3 or 4 State Senate seats would be enough to give the State Senate back to the Democrats. I think those Republicans realized that were this to happen and marriage equality had not been passed yet, then a Democratic controlled Senate in 2013 would be able to put out marriage equality legislation without the restrictions (or protections, as one wishes to see it) that are there now. So, I believe very strongly that the GOP in NY made a tactical move, looking at its immediate future. And in doing so, it just provided cover for other GOP members who may also be having "evolving" opinions about gay marriage. I am pretty sure that the party upper-ups already knew who would "defect" and allowed just enough to do so to get this through.

This kind of procedural tactic is actually pretty common: in March 2010, then Speaker of the House of Representatives Nancy Pelosi gave her blessing to a number of DEM defections from demographically tough swing districts during the vote on the Health Care Law.

I think that that this move was wise, for I believe strongly in the Constitution and do not think that religious institutions should have to accept something they don't want. The freedoms of religious institutions are very clearly outlined in the "Separation Clause" of the Constitution and also of course undergirded the 1st Amendment. Now, the anti-marriage equality side can argue that the very existence of gays ANYWHERE who are married forces the "Church" to accept something it doesn't want, but this is patently false, for one simple reason:

though marriage is considered a holy act by some, if not most, in terms of legality, it is the state-issued marriage certificate that counts. This is why a couple can go down to the courthouse and get married in front of a justice of the peace or court clerk and those two people will be married. They don't even need to go to a church or synagogue or mosque to buddist temple in order be legally married. Only up till recently, it was accepted that the word couple should mean "a man and a woman".

What legalizing gay marriage does is allow benefits for survivors, inheritance, allows for joint tax returns, allows for power of attorney in times of bad health or at end of life. Why should gay people not have these things?

I thought and I thought and I really thought. Why would a good portion of the American public be so virulently opposed to gays having these things?

The only answers I can come up with are: bigotry and hate.

Let's take a look at our own history.

Our Declaration of Independence contains this most famous tenet:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

But how did the Republic get around the problem of slavery? The Dec of Ind says clearly that all men are created equal, but slaves were not equal. As a matter of fact, they were assigned a ratio: 3/5. For the purpose of taxation and representation, they were considered to be just 3/5 of a person, less than a "man" and therefore the main tenet of the Declaration of Independence somehow did not apply to them. Twisted, eh?

Here:

Article 1, Section 2, Paragraph 3 of the United States Constitution: " Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons. "

The slave states were all for it, for it raised their representation in Congress but didn't raise their taxes as high. And the slaves were still slaves. Good deal. Of course this was undone by the 13th amendment and the taxation clause was changed with the 14th amendment to read:

"Representatives shall be apportioned ...counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed..."

So, we already have historical precedent in our country of change being effected and accepted.

Anyone out there still think that blacks should be enslaved and should only count as 3/5 of a person?
I doubt that anyone here really thinks this. I certainly do not.

How about the integration of blacks in the military after WWII? Keeping in mind that black Americans have served in the military since the Revolutionary War, we are looking at a long time frame before integration became a reality: around 180 years. In the Civil War, blacks fought freely on the side of the North, but not integrated. In the South, first close to the end of the War, in the spring of 1865, the Confederate Congress enacted a statute to allow the enlistment of African Americans but fewer than fifty were ever recruited.

Blacks have fought in every war since then, most notably in WWII. The list of all-black fighting units is extensive. Go take a look at it. Integration began on July 26, 1948, with Harry Truman's Executive Order 9981, just four and one half months before the Presidential Election of 1948. Most historians agree that the bulk of integration was done as of 1954, when the last all-black unit was disbanded.

The list of black Americans who have served with distinction is long. One of our great american heroes and former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Colin Powell, is a black American.

I can't imagine anyone today wanting a segregated military.
Anyone out there want a segregated military?

And just to show how courageous Truman was:

"Most civilians and military personnel opposed racial integration. One month before President Truman's Executive Order, a Gallup poll showed that 63% of American adults endorsed the separation of Blacks and Whites in the military; only 26% supported integration. A 1949 survey of white Army personnel revealed that 32% completely opposed racial integration in any form, and 61% opposed integration if it meant that Whites and Blacks would share sleeping quarters and mess halls. However, 68% of white soldiers were willing to have Blacks and Whites work together, provided they didn't share barracks or mess facilities. "

So, once again we have historical precedent in our country of change being effected and accepted.

But the reaction on the part of haters was strong: integration would destroy moral, it would weaken our national defense. The same arguments that were used against the repeal of DADT.

Similar to arguments (mostly in the South) that interracial marriage was wrong, immoral, sinful. And yet we have interracial marriage today.

Anyone out there against interracial marriage? Like these people?

Little_Rock_integration_protest-19581.jpg


Or like this person (anti-civil rights)?

anti-civil-rights1.jpg


(nice touch, the SS armband, real nice touch)

Or this person (anti-school-integration, North Carolina, 1965)?

demonstrators1.jpg


So, once again we have historical precedent in our country of change being effected and accepted.



My view
is that within 50 years this will be a forgotten thing, that marriage equality will be in all 52 states of the Union (Puerto Rico, Guam) and strengthened by national law. And that our grandchildren will ask why there was ever a battle about this to begin with.

Takers?

Sorry to give you such a terse answer after all your composition, but...


Oh, yeah. The anti-gay-marriage/rights crowd is on the wrong side of history, just like Lester Maddox.
 
I will send you a sarcasm button for Christmas.

I live in Nordrhein-Westfalen, but my ex-wife comes from Baden Württemberg, I have been to the larger cities and towns there (Mannheim, Pforzheim, Bensheim, Weinheim, Darmstadt), but I don't recall ever being in Ellwangen.

I really dont call it the "Fatherland" - too many weird associations. The BRD will suffice, I would say....

Good to hear from you.

Good to hear from you also !! I was born in Württemberg. Long story but y parents were in a displaced person camp in Ellwangen. Their emigration to the USA a refugees was temporaily held up because someone with the exact same name and appropximate age as my father showed up on the roster of a Waffen SS list. List was provided by the Soviets and since my Dad was part of a Ukrainian Nationalist group who the Soviets accused of being "Nazi collaborators" . Dad was prisoner in a forced labor camp with a number tatooed and all of that. Anyhow he was cleared -- sorry as I said long story !!!
 
Sorry to give you such a terse answer after all your composition, but...


Oh, yeah. The anti-gay-marriage/rights crowd is on the wrong side of history, just like Lester Maddox.


I like to compose. The answer was just fine. Good to hear your opinion.
I must find that brevity programm in my new Borg implants..... let's see, right her in the ocular implant... just a sec....
AHHHHHHHHHHHHH AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.

Damn, that hurt. Who am I, and who are you?
 
Is it not correct to compare Gays and Blacks?
1. Slavery was a social crime from the beginning. People were taken by force form their land to be cheap workforce
2. Black couple can produce their own child for the society and raise a child to have his own family and his own children. This is how society lives and survives.
3. By your logic if you have Obama now as president, than 60 years from now there can be Gay president…
If I was Black I will be offended. You compare normal people and marginal group that aggressively want other people to pretend that they are normal.
Your opinion just must have opposition. You can't ignore other opinions. I am not a troll, I am not a Nazi, and I am not a homophobe. This is not my business whom a person sleeps with, as long as he doesn't promote gay culture to my children and their friends via TV, Radio, Internet and now via legislation. If he does, I will voice opposition. Want equal rights? No problem lets argue fair, not cheating with banns and deleting messages.
Bonncaruso, they banned me form other forum. You sent me private message but I can't answer because they banned me. Is this how democracy and freedom of opinion work? If an opinion offenses Gays then this opinion must be banned. Albert Einstein: "if the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts"
 
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Is it not correct to compare Gays and Blacks?
1. Slavery was a social crime from the beginning. People were taken by force form their land to be cheap workforce
2. Black couple can produce their own child for the society and raise a child to have his own family and his own children. This is how society lives and survives.
3. By your logic if you have Obama now as president, than 60 years from now there can be Gay president…
If I was Black I will be offended. You compare normal people and marginal group that aggressively want other people to pretend that they are normal.
Your opinion just must have opposition. You can't ignore other opinions. I am not a troll, I am not a Nazi, and I am not a homophobe. This is not my business whom a person sleeps with, as long as he doesn't promote gay culture to my children and their friends via TV, Radio, Internet and now via legislation. If he does, I will voice opposition. Want equal rights? No problem lets argue fair, not cheating with banns and deleting messages.
Bonncaruso, they banned me form other forum. You sent me private message but I can't answer because they banned me. Is this how democracy and freedom of opinion work? If an opinion offenses Gays then this opinion must be banned. Albert Einstein: "if the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts"

As to what I bolded, why not?
 
Is it not correct to compare Gays and Blacks?
1. Slavery was a social crime from the beginning. People were taken by force form their land to be cheap workforce
2. Black couple can produce their own child for the society and raise a child to have his own family and his own children. This is how society lives and survives.
3. By your logic if you have Obama now as president, than 60 years from now there can be Gay president…
If I was Black I will be offended. You compare normal people and marginal group that aggressively want other people to pretend that they are normal.
Your opinion just must have opposition. You can't ignore other opinions. I am not a troll, I am not a Nazi, and I am not a homophobe. This is not my business whom a person sleeps with, as long as he doesn't promote gay culture to my children and their friends via TV, Radio, Internet and now via legislation. If he does, I will voice opposition. Want equal rights? No problem lets argue fair, not cheating with banns and deleting messages.
Bonncaruso, they banned me form other forum. You sent me private message but I can't answer because they banned me. Is this how democracy and freedom of opinion work? If an opinion offenses Gays then this opinion must be banned. Albert Einstein: "if the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts"

Anton, I do not think people understand what you are saying. I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, but unless you did some bad translating from Russki into Amerikanski, then I also disagree with you most strongly here.

Your justification for opposition to gays just wont cut it.
 
As to what I bolded, why not?
It depends on the position. On your side: why not? On my side: yes, but?
If you are Gay, than your purpose is to defend your group, to prevent a child form future oppression towards gays. But if a child well mannered and decent, than why bother? Decent people don't oppress anyone. On the contrary they protect people from any oppression. So, maybe it is a question of common moral? So why promote gay culture then? Improve moral of the society via arts or science. Why parade? Why kissing at public? For many people it is disgusting and it provokes physical rejection inside. If you want respect, than show respect to people that differs from you!
 
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Anton, I do not think people understand what you are saying. I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, but unless you did some bad translating from Russki into Amerikanski, then I also disagree with you most strongly here.

Your justification for opposition to gays just wont cut it.

Excuse me for my broken English! I have little practice. Only read and listen mostly. Which part is not clear? I do not justify opposition, I just say it MUST be. Otherwise it is tyranny. Democracy is the worst form of government except for all those others (Churchill)
 
Excuse me for my broken English! I have little practice. Only read and listen mostly. Which part is not clear? I do not justify opposition, I just say it MUST be. Otherwise it is tyranny. Democracy is the worst form of government except for all those others (Churchill)

You're doing fine English-wise. I think I know what you're saying. I disagree. The reason for the parades and such is to bring attention to the fact that they want equality. As for the kissing in public, I hate it when hetero couples do too much of that. I don't like it when anyone does that.

And welcome to Political Hotwire!