1421: The Year China Discovered America

Jul 2013
48,594
51,375
Nashville, TN
#51
Everything I wrote is historical fact. Please clarify your objection.



Agree.



Disagree.

The Japanese had boundless self-confidence.



If Japan had left the USA alone no one could have stopped it as long as the USSR had to devote most of its attention to Germany.
The US was ever tightening the screws on the Japanese economy, cutting off their access to resources, thus Pearl Harbor and the "Greater East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere" was born.
 
Likes: Leo2
May 2010
94
6
#52
The US was ever tightening the screws on the Japanese economy, cutting off their access to resources, thus Pearl Harbor and the "Greater East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere" was born.
No, the USA was not cutting off access to resources. It was declining sell resources to Japan, having already sold Japan enough iron to build the 2nd largest Navy in the world. Unfortunately the most vital of other reposurces, crude oil, was readily available in Indonesia. Indonesia was there for Japan's picking, and Japan could have had Indonesia without becoming embroiled with the USA.
 

Tedminator

Former Staff
Jun 2010
25,876
17,770
South Florida
#53
Japan was never colonized by the Chinese. The ancestors of the modern Japanense migrated to the islands, probably from Korea, at some unknown date prior to the 600sBC, when the still-reigning Imperial dynasty was founded. The Japanese language is unrelated to Chinese, indicating an ancient separation from the Chinese thousands of years BC.

The Mongol Chinese Yuan dynasty failed twice to conquer Japan in the 1200s. After then it left Japan alone permanently, excepting intervention aggainst Japan during a Japanese invaion of Korea in the 1500s.
True, 'colonized' is the wrong word but people from the mainland of what is now china did settle the Japanese islands. And ancient China did have a big influence on Japan's culture, religion, farming, language, architecture, technology etc.
 
Nov 2007
1,482
554
Prague, Czech Republic
#54
Sorry, no. It is offeBnsive to me that anyone suggests non-whitr people from China discovered non-white people in 'Murica.

Nobody can have a party without white European. That would be a dangerous attempt at killing white culture.

Lol.
No often I get replies to things I wrote 5 years ago!

Lots of things happen without white Europeans being involved. Zheng He's fleets did sail to Africa. And we know that because there's evidence. The Chinese wrote about it. They left descriptions of the voyage, and what they'd seen in Mogadishu (one of the Chinese crew, Fei Xin, wrote a book in which he said the people of Mogadishu were thieves and liars. He was much more complimentary about the people in Barawa in the south of Somalia, so it probably wasn't that he didn't like Africans. I'm guessing someone ripped him off in Mogadishu). They painted pictures of ostriches and giraffes. They produced maps of the East African coast.

Menzies thinks they also went to California. But despite the abundant documentary evidence of sailing to Indonesia, and India, and Africa, they didn't write anything about California. It's not racist to think this is nonsense. It's just common sense. We're not talking about things happening in a place with no written records. We're talking about Ming dynasty China; probably the richest and most literate country in the world at the time. If they were sailing to America, we'd likely have noticed.

There is evidence of pre-Colombian contact between Eurasia and America. Apart from the Vikings, there's the Bering strait crossing. Alaska and Siberia were never very far away; and there's good evidence that people didn't stop crossing the straits 20,000 years ago. The people archaeologists described a Thule culture; who are the ancestors of modern Inuit, may well have spread to North America from Chukotka in medieval times.

Polynesians may also have sailed all the way across the Pacific, and some may have gone back again. The evidence is not at all certain, but there are several tentative hints in the distributions of plant products and possible loan words. That's how you decide if things are true. Not whether it sounds racist or not - but whether there's evidence for it. There's tentative but inconclusive evidence for Polynesians sailing across the Pacific long before Columbus, so that might have happened. There's no evidence for Chinese treasure fleets doing so, so that probably didn't.

St Brendan's sailing across the Atlantic, incidentally, is beloved of some white nationalists in the US nowadays, who are big fans of anything that implies earlier white European presence in the Americas. No evidence for that one either, though.
 
Likes: BigLeRoy
Jul 2013
48,594
51,375
Nashville, TN
#55
No, the USA was not cutting off access to resources. It was declining sell resources to Japan, having already sold Japan enough iron to build the 2nd largest Navy in the world. Unfortunately the most vital of other reposurces, crude oil, was readily available in Indonesia. Indonesia was there for Japan's picking, and Japan could have had Indonesia without becoming embroiled with the USA.
Here are 3 reasons why Japan attacked Pearl Harbor:
Reason #1: An Increased Need For Natural Resources
Japan had an increased need for natural resources like oil, minerals and steel as their goals for expansion in Asia and the Pacific increased.

Reason #2: Restrictions

The United States also had an obvious interest in these natural resources, and in response to to the Japanese aggression, the U.S. Congress placed restrictions on doing business with Japan. And, if that weren’t enough, Japanese assets in the United States were frozen.

Reason #3: Expansion in the Pacific

President Roosevelt moved the US Pacific Fleet from California to Pearl Harbor in 1939. This move was a threat to Japan, who wanted to expand in the Pacific. Military leaders and politicians saw a war between the U.S. and Japan as inevitable, with the solution being to attack first. Japan did just that.
3 Reasons Why Japan Attacked Pearl Harbor | Pearl Harbor Warbirds
 
Jan 2016
41,916
37,719
Colorado
#56
No often I get replies to things I wrote 5 years ago!

Lots of things happen without white Europeans being involved. Zheng He's fleets did sail to Africa. And we know that because there's evidence. The Chinese wrote about it. They left descriptions of the voyage, and what they'd seen in Mogadishu (one of the Chinese crew, Fei Xin, wrote a book in which he said the people of Mogadishu were thieves and liars. He was much more complimentary about the people in Barawa in the south of Somalia, so it probably wasn't that he didn't like Africans. I'm guessing someone ripped him off in Mogadishu). They painted pictures of ostriches and giraffes. They produced maps of the East African coast.

Menzies thinks they also went to California. But despite the abundant documentary evidence of sailing to Indonesia, and India, and Africa, they didn't write anything about California. It's not racist to think this is nonsense. It's just common sense. We're not talking about things happening in a place with no written records. We're talking about Ming dynasty China; probably the richest and most literate country in the world at the time. If they were sailing to America, we'd likely have noticed.

There is evidence of pre-Colombian contact between Eurasia and America. Apart from the Vikings, there's the Bering strait crossing. Alaska and Siberia were never very far away; and there's good evidence that people didn't stop crossing the straits 20,000 years ago. The people archaeologists described a Thule culture; who are the ancestors of modern Inuit, may well have spread to North America from Chukotka in medieval times.

Polynesians may also have sailed all the way across the Pacific, and some may have gone back again. The evidence is not at all certain, but there are several tentative hints in the distributions of plant products and possible loan words. That's how you decide if things are true. Not whether it sounds racist or not - but whether there's evidence for it. There's tentative but inconclusive evidence for Polynesians sailing across the Pacific long before Columbus, so that might have happened. There's no evidence for Chinese treasure fleets doing so, so that probably didn't.

St Brendan's sailing across the Atlantic, incidentally, is beloved of some white nationalists in the US nowadays, who are big fans of anything that implies earlier white European presence in the Americas. No evidence for that one either, though.
I am going to quote from the magisterial The European Discovery of America, Volume I: The Northern Voyages, by Samuel Eliot Morison, the great scholar of the Age of Discovery. The quote is from a chapter titled: St. Brendan and the Irish, A.D. 400-600:

"Brendan was a real person, and in my opinion his Navigatio is based on a real voyage or voyages, enhanced by Celtic imagination. The whole atmosphere of the story is northern. We can accept the Faeroes and Soay as the Islands of Birds and of Sheep, although the millions of birds now scream rather than sing psalms, and the wild sheep later found there by the Norsemen were runts, not monsters. The volcano might have been Hecla in Iceland or Beerenberg on Jan Mayen or even Tenerife. Waterfalls fall directly into the sea from St. George in the Azores.....Three centuries after Brendan's death, the raiding Vikings found Irish monks in Iceland, the Faeroes, the Shetlands, and the Orkneys, and picked up Irish bells and croziers in Iceland. We are not straining the evidence to conclude that Brendan sailed for several trips, if not for seven years, on the circuit Hebrides-Shetlands-Faeroes-Iceland, possibly as far as the Azores. Presumably some bard or writer who heard the story of the real voyage was clever enough to see that it would make, in modern terms, 'good copy', especially if embellished by marvels. The whaleback island and the talking birds had been stock stories of earlier Irish imrama, and one can also detect borrowings from Lucian, Virgil, Homer, and other ancient writers......But, discovery of America---No!"

In other words, Morison is quite sure that St. Brendan WAS sailing around quite a bit in the North Atlantic, to places as remote as Iceland and Jan Mayen, and to the Azores. But not to America.
 
Jan 2016
41,916
37,719
Colorado
#57
True, 'colonized' is the wrong word but people from the mainland of what is now china did settle the Japanese islands. And ancient China did have a big influence on Japan's culture, religion, farming, language, architecture, technology etc.
There is no question about the massive influence of Chinese culture on Japan, but NCDane is correct that the modern Japanese are descended from colonists from Korea, and not from China. The Japanese are closely related to the Koreans, not so much to the Chinese. Neither the Koreans nor the Japanese are happy to admit this. Be aware of this if you ever travel to that part of the planet. You will make no friends among the Japanese by telling them they are closely related to the Koreans, nor would you make any friends in Korea by telling them that they are close kin to the Japanese.

For a LONG time, this close relationship between the Japanese and the Koreans was very unclear, to say the least, because the Japanese and Korean languages do not seem at all closely related. But this puzzle has now been resolved. For a splendid explanation of it all, I recommend the updated and revised edition of Jared Diamond's Guns, Germs, and Steel, which has an entire chapter titled "Who Are the Japanese?", which makes for very fascinating reading. The original inhabitants of Japan were hunter-gatherers, of course, and they eventually got pushed further and further north in Japan, and are the rapidly dwindling people we know today as the Ainu, an anthropological mystery group all by themselves. The ancestors of the modern Japanese began colonizing Japan from the southern part of Korea in about 400 BC, with a culture known as the Yayoi culture, and they were bringing wet rice agriculture and iron metallurgy with them. So, the modern Japanese didn't even arrive in Japan until a few short centuries before the Christian era.
 

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