Alabama's abortion ban: The US should follow Carthage.

Rev. Hellh0und

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I thought you were a Libertarian.


I am. Libertarian is not a death pact, and if you read my posts you would know I am against legislating abortion....I think the change has to come culturally.

As far as libertarians and abortion goes it has to do when one considers it to be two lives, not one, and the Non aggression principle.
 

Rev. Hellh0und

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I would disagree that "dramatically change my life" is same as "personal convenience".

Not everyone can or should or ought to be a parent, dude, not everyone is ready for such a huge responsibility. I can tell you I have felt that way at times. My wife, fortunately, is much stronger than I am, as far as that goes.

But, what if you are a woman, on your own, no husband, who never planned to become a mother, are between jobs (and are not, I mean, financially able, at this moment, to actually support a child, a family of your own), and you suddenly become pregnant from some one night stand?

I remember once, my grandma, when she was still alive, told me about how women, including friends of hers, got rid of unwanted babies in Soviet Union under Stalin, in the 1940s and 50s, when abortion was illegal there under penalty of execution for the doctor. There were illegal underground dungeons, essentially, where mostly unprofessional, unlicensed, uneducated charlatans did stuff to those girls that would make many modern horror films look tame...

Women today, including in Russia, thank God, are blessed, to be able to get this very necessary, at times, procedure, in a safe, clean environment, overseen by competent, professional medical staff.

Not, however, in my own old homeland, Abkhazia, and it is now literally killing some women there, as I wrote here: For those who demand bans on abortion

:(

Making laws based on pseudo-righteous morality never ends well for anyone, my friend...


Millions of women do it every day. it's not "politically correct" to say so, but because "would dramatically change my life" is the very definition of "convenience". Not saying ban those abortions, but calling them what they are, goes to changing the culture.
 

The Man

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Jul 2011
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Millions of women do it every day. it's not "politically correct" to say so, but because "would dramatically change my life" is the very definition of "convenience". Not saying ban those abortions, but calling them what they are, goes to changing the culture.
Maybe they do. And it's THEIR business. Not yours or mine. Period.
 

Rev. Hellh0und

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Maybe they do. And it's THEIR business. Not yours or mine. Period.


Are you missing my point?


Let me ask you then and this always blows up..




If it's 100% a womans choice, then why do men have to pay for thy choice through child support? he had no say.
 
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I would disagree that "dramatically change my life" is same as "personal convenience".

Not everyone can or should or ought to be a parent, dude, not everyone is ready for such a huge responsibility. I can tell you I have felt that way at times. My wife, fortunately, is much stronger than I am, as far as that goes.

But, what if you are a woman, on your own, no husband, who never planned to become a mother, are between jobs (and are not, I mean, financially able, at this moment, to actually support a child, a family of your own), and you suddenly become pregnant from some one night stand?

I remember once, my grandma, when she was still alive, told me about how women, including friends of hers, got rid of unwanted babies in Soviet Union under Stalin, in the 1940s and 50s, when abortion was illegal there under penalty of execution for the doctor. There were illegal underground dungeons, essentially, where mostly unprofessional, unlicensed, uneducated charlatans did stuff to those girls that would make many modern horror films look tame...

Women today, including in Russia, thank God, are blessed, to be able to get this very necessary, at times, procedure, in a safe, clean environment, overseen by competent, professional medical staff.

Not, however, in my own old homeland, Abkhazia, and it is now literally killing some women there, as I wrote here: For those who demand bans on abortion

:(

Making laws based on pseudo-righteous morality never ends well for anyone, my friend...
Thanks for sharing your story.
 

StanStill

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Because that's not what my link stated, Are you calling the fetal brain at 8-10 weeks "nerves"?
Basically. They are clearly the nerves that will become the brain, but as the article states, the brain hasn't developed yet. This is the next paragraph:

The frontal and temporal poles of the brain are apparent during weeks 12 to 16, and the frontal pole (which becomes the neocortex) grows disproportionately fast when compared with the rest of the cortex. The surface of the cortex appears flat through the third month, but by the end of the fourth month indentations, or sulci, appear. (These develop into the familiar folds of the cerebrum.) The different lobes of the brain also become apparent, and neurons continue to proliferate and migrate throughout the cortex. By week 13 the fetus has begun to move. Around this time the corpus callosum, the massive collection of fibers (the axons of neurons) that allow for communication between the hemispheres, begins to develop, forming the infrastructure for the major part of the cross talk between the two sides of the brain. Yet the fetus is not a sentient, self-aware organism at this point; it is more like a sea slug, a writhing, reflex-bound hunk of sensory-motor processes that does not respond to anything in a directed, purposeful way. Laying down the infrastructure for a mature brain and possessing a mature brain are two very different states of being.
So why is week 8 so special to you? As the article says, brain development has only begun. Seems arbitrary.
 

Rev. Hellh0und

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Basically. They are clearly the nerves that will become the brain, but as the article states, the brain hasn't developed yet. This is the next paragraph:



So why is week 8 so special to you? As the article says, brain development has only begun. Seems arbitrary.


This is why:

"During weeks 8 to 10, the cerebrum begins its development in earnest. Neurons proliferate and begin their migration throughout the brain. The anterior commissure, which is the first interhemispheric connection (a small one), also develops. Reflexes appear for the first time during this period. "


Would you compromise at 12 weeks?
 

The Man

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Are you missing my point?

Let me ask you then and this always blows up..

If it's 100% a womans choice, then why do men have to pay for thy choice through child support? he had no say.
Because it's the right thing to do?

Once you've brought a child into this world, or, helped to, anyhow, yes, it is your duty, as a man, IMHO, to ensure he is provided for. Why the hell not?

I have a son on the other side of the fucking world, back in Moscow, whom I only learned about when was already here, in Canada. And now that I do know about him, guess what? I send his mom money every month, not because some judge told me to, but because my conscience would not have let me sleep otherwise.

That's simply who I am.
 

Rev. Hellh0und

Former Staff
Jul 2011
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315 bowery/DMS
Because it's the right thing to do?

Once you've brought a child into this world, or, helped to, anyhow, yes, it is your duty, as a man, IMHO, to ensure he is provided for. Why the hell not?

I have a son on the other side of the fucking world, back in Moscow, whom I only learned about when was already here, in Canada. And now that I do know about him, guess what? I send his mom money every month, not because some judge told me to, but because my conscience would not have let me sleep otherwise.

That's simply who I am.



Of course it's the right thing to do. What I am getting at though is the devils advocate argument that if a woman can choose to have sex, and one of those consequences of that choice is pregnancy, that if it's 100% her choice to keep or abort, then by that logic, the man is absolved of all responsibility.


It's not like women are ignorant of the consequences of sex.
 
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The Man

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Of course it's the right thing to do. What I am getting at though is the devils advocate argument that if a woman can choose to have sex, and one of those consequences of that choice is pregnancy, that if it's 100% her choice to keep or abort, then by that logic, the man is absolved of all responsibility.

It's not like women are ignorant of the consequences of sex.
I suppose...

The way I see it, though, is that's exactly it: women are the ones who have to deal with pregnancy and childbirth and all the risks and unpleasantness involved in all of that. We do not.

And in Russian culture, for example, women, mothers and wives, tend to also shoulder most of child REARING as well; for instance, if you look at "Parent Day" meetings at Russian schools, there are those who say, just call it what it is: "Mother Day", because you will see very, very few DADS at those things


Men over there typically go off to their work; and only involve themselves, post-"conception" (i.e. the "fun part", for us men, anyway haha) with playing sports with the kid and such, when he is old enough, that is, more "fun stuff"


All the not so fun parts of being a parent are on the women, even if she has an actual day job of her own too, such as, for example, forcing the kid to do his homework, and helping him with it when he struggles, is yet another job for mom, or grandma, when mom is too busy


Many kids over there barely see their dads...

I am glad it is different over here. Me and my wife actually share our tasks in caring for our two boys much more evenly, although Mom-in-Law is a huge help too, with both of us working full time as well :)

Family is hard work, man... It is absolutely NOT for everyone, as I said in a earlier post. That's why proper family PLANNING is so important.