Chanukah - 8th day

Ian Jeffrey

Council Hall
Mar 2013
72,252
40,356
Vulcan, down the street from Darth Vader
#91
We're not talking about the beliefs of Jews from 2000 years ago. We're talking about the concept of the "chosen people" as it applies TODAY.

...

Are you saying that the phrase "chosen people" once carried connotations of superiority in centuries past?

Or are you saying that the phrase "chosen people" carries connotations of superiority today?
Orthodox Judaism has always held - ever since receiving the Torah some 3,400-odd years ago (though of course neither the terms "orthodox" nor "Judaism" were in use back then) - as to what "chosen" means in the Jewish religious context, and it has never carried the negative connotations attributed to the term by antisemites.
 
Jul 2015
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1,605
Maryland USA
#92
From my perspective, I think one's religion most times is an accident of birth. My Jewish buds are Jews because they were born Jews. I was raised Protestant because I was born into a Protestant family and my wife is Catholic because she was born into a Catholic family.

Moreover, perhaps those of us that follow the Christian faith have a debt of sorts to the Jews because they were the Chosen People. That debt is the belief in "one God". Jews were among the first, if not the first, to promote the belief in one God as opposed to multiple divinities. That God being the God of Abraham, the God in which Christians follow as well. I suspect that contributed to being the Chosen people. Additionally, the Jews were not a mighty nation, so they better illustrated the power of God over the strength of a mighty nation. Again, a reason for their position as the chosen people.

If there is more to it than birth and the manner in which one lives their life, then I hope my Jewish buds will put in a good word for me.
 
Jan 2007
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480
Irrelevant
#93
If Jewish eschatology trumps what most Jews actually believe,
Excuse me. I said what jews 'feel...', not 'believe. What they feel about their religion is irrelevant to what that religion is actually saying.

then the matter is settled. After all, the historical basis has little/no bearing. We're not talking about the beliefs of Jews from 2000 years ago. We're talking about the concept of the "chosen people" as it applies TODAY.
Actually, I wasn't even talking about the idea of 'chosenness' today, rather what the word originally meant. It is racist. Back then, everyone was racist. It was necessary for the survival of the tribe.

As I've maintained in other posts, other threads, the Bible contains LOTS of edicts and rules that Jews and Christians still print in every copy of the Bible - but they neither believe nor practice these things.

So my next question -

Are you saying that the phrase "chosen people" once carried connotations of superiority in centuries past?
Yes.

And before you spew more accusations of anti-semitism, I would further claim that the idea of nationalism and national identity developed along the lines of race. The issue right now is not whether people are racist or not -- rather, can we relate with one another out of genuine racial respect.

Or are you saying that the phrase "chosen people" carries connotations of superiority today?
Yes, as explained above.

These are very different questions, and if you allow today's Jews be defined by beliefs they no longer hold, then the same can be applied to Christians.
But I am not talking about what jews believe. I am talking about racism what racism is. Ethnocentric is just another word for racist.

As the wiki article provided, the idea of 'chosenness' acts as 'a powerful agent of consolation and hope'. So, being racist in this instance is not a bad thing. In fact, it is necessary if the jewish people are to exist today as such.

============

And back to your argument claiming that Jewish eschatology is racist because of the prophetic belief that the Messiah will be Jewish, that's nonsensical. It's like claiming that Christian eschatology is misogynist because it foretells that the Messiah will be male. Of course, for it to be truly misogynist, then most Christian sects would have to give preferential status and recognition to men. Oh, wait ...
But jews immensely more learned than you believe that it is. They even published this claim.

Now, you can look at this for whatever it is worth or you can delude yourself that isn't. In any case, your innuendos regarding gender equality is irrelevant to this thread topic.
 
Jan 2007
7,548
480
Irrelevant
#94
Orthodox Judaism has always held - ever since receiving the Torah some 3,400-odd years ago (though of course neither the terms "orthodox" nor "Judaism" were in use back then) - as to what "chosen" means in the Jewish religious context, and it has never carried the negative connotations attributed to the term by antisemites.
You mean these antisemites?

Jews as the chosen people - Wikipedia

Reconstructionist criticism[edit]

Reconstructionist Judaism rejects the concept of chosenness. Its founder, Rabbi Mordecai Kaplan, said that the idea that God chose the Jewish people leads to racist beliefs among Jews, and thus must be excised from Jewish theology....

Influence on relations with other religions[edit]

Avi Beker, an Israeli scholar and former Secretary General of the World Jewish Congress, regarded the idea of the chosen people as Judaism's defining concept and "the central unspoken psychological, historical, and theological problem at the heart of Jewish-Gentile relations." In his book The Chosen: The History of an Idea, and the Anatomy of an Obsession, Beker expresses the view that the concept of chosenness is the driving force behind Jewish-Gentile relations, explaining both the admiration and, more pointedly, the envy and hatred the world has felt for the Jews in religious and also secular terms.

Ethnocentrism[edit]

Israeli philosopher Ze’ev Levy writes that chosenness can be "(partially) justified only from the historical angle" with respect to its spiritual and moral contribution to Jewish life through the centuries, "a powerful agent of consolation and hope". He points out however that modern anthropological theories "do not merely proclaim the inherent universal equality of all people [as] human beings; they also stress the equivalence of all human cultures." (emphasis in original) He continues that "there are no inferior and superior people or cultures but only different, other, ones." He concludes that the concept of chosenness entails ethnocentrism, "which does not go hand in hand with otherness, that is, with unconditional respect of otherness".

Jewish scholars more learned than you do not share your opinion on the matter.

duh?
 
Apr 2011
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My mother's womb, of course.
#96
kingrat has been thread banned. Please do not reply to or reference their posts.
Originally I thought Ian was just wishing everyone a happy Chanukah. But my goodness! Now it has become an ugly fight about Jews, and at least two people have been thread banned. I hope this doesn't happen in Merry Xmas threads?
 

Ian Jeffrey

Council Hall
Mar 2013
72,252
40,356
Vulcan, down the street from Darth Vader
#97
Originally I thought Ian was just wishing everyone a happy Chanukah. But my goodness! Now it has become an ugly fight about Jews, and at least two people have been thread banned. I hope this doesn't happen in Merry Xmas threads?
It did not take long ... see post #2.
 
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