Chanukah - 8th day

Apr 2012
57,332
42,148
Englewood,Ohio
#81
@Djinn, I am not responding to his antisemitic nonsense. He is looking for any excuse he can make up to use a thread on Chanukah to dump on Jews, and I am not wasting my time on that.

On other matters, though ... you are pretty much hitting the nail on the head. If I see something in the thread that I missed that I think needs further response, I will of course jump in.
A real shame that we can not have a good, honest discussion with questions answered to have a poster,( lurker?) who never posts but who seems to delight in anger and hate ruin the thread.

Good thing I am not a MOD here.
 
Jan 2007
7,548
480
Irrelevant
#82
According to the text, God will choose a specific individual of Jewish ancestry for a position of leadership. That means the leader is special - it says nothing about Jews in general. Nor does it suggest that during this "age of justice and peace," Jews will enjoy any sort of special status or preferential treatment. You're deviating WAY too far from the text to assume otherwise.
Omg! The dishonesty is astounding!

Are you saying that in entering the covenant with god, a covenant that is unique to the jewish people, thereby earning the privilege of being the 'chosen people of god', is not a special honor or reward??????

Where on earth are you getting your interpretations?
I am only stating what ian's statements in the past have led me to believe. If he is going to accuse me, and the entirety of christendom, of anti-semitism (which he has done so repeatedly), I feel that I am owed a better explanation that your dishonest attempts here.
 
Jan 2007
7,548
480
Irrelevant
#83
@Djinn, I am not responding to his antisemitic nonsense. He is looking for any excuse he can make up to use a thread on Chanukah to dump on Jews, and I am not wasting my time on that.
But you do have time to fling accusations of anti-semitism, it appears.

Your jewish law applies only to jews because the covenant was made by god only with the jews. In return, god promised a lot of things for the jewish nation and the entire world.

Again, I ask, how can that be interpreted as anything but the superiority of the jewish people over all other peoples, hmmmm? Because if you would not deign to answer the question, I suggest you keep your accusations to yourself. At least that is what a civilized conversation requires.
 

Djinn

Council Hall
Dec 2007
49,652
35,799
Pennsylvania, USA
#84
Omg! The dishonesty is astounding!

Are you saying that in entering the covenant with god, a covenant that is unique to the jewish people, thereby earning the privilege of being the 'chosen people of god', is not a special honor or reward??????
Correct. Do you think Job felt honored to have his life totally fucked over? No, he didn't lose faith, but I seriously doubt he felt honored to have been "chosen by God."

The character Tevye, from "Fiddler on the Roof" put it best: "I know, I know. We are Your chosen people. But, once in a while, can't You choose someone else? "

While intended as humor, it's a fairly accurate reflection of how most Jews perceive their status as "chosen." And it doesn't suggest "superiority."
 
Likes: Ian Jeffrey
Jul 2013
51,108
54,255
Nashville, TN
#86
A real shame that we can not have a good, honest discussion with questions answered to have a poster,( lurker?) who never posts but who seems to delight in anger and hate ruin the thread.

Good thing I am not a MOD here.
Too bad more Christians are not like you MA, instead, we seem to get the hysterical followers of fringe right wing Evangelical cults posting here a lot.
 
Jan 2007
7,548
480
Irrelevant
#87
Discriminatory Content
Correct. Do you think Job felt honored to have his life totally fucked over? No, he didn't lose faith, but I seriously doubt he felt honored to have been "chosen by God."

The character Tevye, from "Fiddler on the Roof" put it best: "I know, I know. We are Your chosen people. But, once in a while, can't You choose someone else? "

While intended as humor, it's a fairly accurate reflection of how most Jews perceive their status as "chosen." And it doesn't suggest "superiority."
The issue here is whether the jewish concept of 'chosenness' is racist. What jews themselves feel about this status is irrelevant. The fact is, this opinion is not confined to non-jews since some jews themselves feel that it is indeed racist.

Jews as the chosen people - Wikipedia

Reconstructionist criticism[edit]

Reconstructionist Judaism rejects the concept of chosenness. Its founder, Rabbi Mordecai Kaplan, said that the idea that God chose the Jewish people leads to racist beliefs among Jews, and thus must be excised from Jewish theology....

Influence on relations with other religions[edit]

Avi Beker, an Israeli scholar and former Secretary General of the World Jewish Congress, regarded the idea of the chosen people as Judaism's defining concept and "the central unspoken psychological, historical, and theological problem at the heart of Jewish-Gentile relations." In his book The Chosen: The History of an Idea, and the Anatomy of an Obsession, Beker expresses the view that the concept of chosenness is the driving force behind Jewish-Gentile relations, explaining both the admiration and, more pointedly, the envy and hatred the world has felt for the Jews in religious and also secular terms.

Ethnocentrism[edit]

Israeli philosopher Ze’ev Levy writes that chosenness can be "(partially) justified only from the historical angle" with respect to its spiritual and moral contribution to Jewish life through the centuries, "a powerful agent of consolation and hope". He points out however that modern anthropological theories "do not merely proclaim the inherent universal equality of all people [as] human beings; they also stress the equivalence of all human cultures." (emphasis in original) He continues that "there are no inferior and superior people or cultures but only different, other, ones." He concludes that the concept of chosenness entails ethnocentrism, "which does not go hand in hand with otherness, that is, with unconditional respect of otherness".

Of course, most jews would deny all these -- claiming that 'chosenness' does not imply 'superiority', rather a burden arising from the abrahamic covenant. But these claims, like your opinions above, fall apart in view of jewish eschatology and the role of the jews in end-times.
 
Apr 2012
57,332
42,148
Englewood,Ohio
#89
Too bad more Christians are not like you MA, instead, we seem to get the hysterical followers of fringe right wing Evangelical cults posting here a lot.
We were having a nice discussion of another faith that had nothing to do with whether we disagree or not. Just explanations.

Since all Religion has man made rules all get tied up in that where as Faith is a personal choice. Yours, not mine.
 

Djinn

Council Hall
Dec 2007
49,652
35,799
Pennsylvania, USA
#90
The issue here is whether the jewish concept of 'chosenness' is racist. What jews themselves feel about this status is irrelevant. The fact is, this opinion is not confined to non-jews since some jews themselves feel that it is indeed racist.
...
Of course, most jews would deny all these -- claiming that 'chosenness' does not imply 'superiority', rather a burden arising from the abrahamic covenant. But these claims, like your opinions above, fall apart in view of jewish eschatology and the role of the jews in end-times.
If Jewish eschatology trumps what most Jews actually believe, then the matter is settled. After all, the historical basis has little/no bearing. We're not talking about the beliefs of Jews from 2000 years ago. We're talking about the concept of the "chosen people" as it applies TODAY.

As I've maintained in other posts, other threads, the Bible contains LOTS of edicts and rules that Jews and Christians still print in every copy of the Bible - but they neither believe nor practice these things.

So my next question -

Are you saying that the phrase "chosen people" once carried connotations of superiority in centuries past?

Or are you saying that the phrase "chosen people" carries connotations of superiority today?

These are very different questions, and if you allow today's Jews be defined by beliefs they no longer hold, then the same can be applied to Christians.

============

And back to your argument claiming that Jewish eschatology is racist because of the prophetic belief that the Messiah will be Jewish, that's nonsensical. It's like claiming that Christian eschatology is misogynist because it foretells that the Messiah will be male. Of course, for it to be truly misogynist, then most Christian sects would have to give preferential status and recognition to men. Oh, wait ...
 
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