Democrats have made a sharp left turn – Here's what's behind it

Sep 2017
5,469
6,537
Massachusetts
..... So while I agree, other countries laid out their plans first and then put ideas in place. .....
That's another reason we should be able to run laps around them. They were the "early adopters." They locked in a bunch of mistakes for no better reason than that they had no way to realize they weren't optimal at the time. We have the ability to sit back and look at 30 or 40 socialized systems, most of which have been running for decades, and every single one of which is cheaper and produces better results than ours. We can cherry pick the best ideas from each. We can learn from their mistakes and do even better than they've done, by studying both the fundamentals of their plans, and how they were implemented.

Its apparent from the ACA we didnt do that we started with the healthcare plan and then worried about the infrastructure last
ACA was imperfect, as compromises tend to be. But it was a huge step in the right direction. Since it was implemented, healthcare costs have been rising at far below the pre-ACA rate, and the US's life expectancy has risen relative to other leading nations (after decades of falling). It's a lesson that says don't make the perfect the enemy of the good. If we're so worried about the order of infrastructure and implementation that we let ourselves be frozen in place with an inferior system, we're doing ourselves no favors. Better to push ahead as best we can.

We have states and their govts to take into account. That makes us vastly different from Europe.
Every nation has different problems to confront. For example, Switzerland has different cantons which are vastly more culturally diverse, one from the next, than various US states are from each other. They speak four different languages, for starters. Similarly, Canada has the oddball of Quebec, which may as well be another country. Denmark, until relatively recently, had to manage the healthcare system of Greenland, which really is another country. Germany had to figure out a way to integrate two radically different economies when reunification happened, which meant bringing together two very different healthcare systems. Belgium has three different languages packed into a tiny country. San Marino needs to run its own national healthcare system with a total population smaller than many corporations. Japan had to build its system from scratch from the ruins of a bombed out civilization. Etc.

Where the real difference comes in is that those other countries just acknowledge their special challenges and move forward with solutions, whereas Americans like to whine about it endlessly, using it as an excuse not to move forward.
 
Sep 2014
16,329
9,034
in the noggins of yip yappers
The left blinker will put us in a state like Venezuela. Just what the not so bright want.
The not so bright are the drooling Trumpzies afraid of their Orange Baboon proving just how much drool they can produce.
 
Mar 2012
59,760
41,225
New Hampshire
That's another reason we should be able to run laps around them. They were the "early adopters." They locked in a bunch of mistakes for no better reason than that they had no way to realize they weren't optimal at the time. We have the ability to sit back and look at 30 or 40 socialized systems, most of which have been running for decades, and every single one of which is cheaper and produces better results than ours. We can cherry pick the best ideas from each. We can learn from their mistakes and do even better than they've done, by studying both the fundamentals of their plans, and how they were implemented.



ACA was imperfect, as compromises tend to be. But it was a huge step in the right direction. Since it was implemented, healthcare costs have been rising at far below the pre-ACA rate, and the US's life expectancy has risen relative to other leading nations (after decades of falling). It's a lesson that says don't make the perfect the enemy of the good. If we're so worried about the order of infrastructure and implementation that we let ourselves be frozen in place with an inferior system, we're doing ourselves no favors. Better to push ahead as best we can.



Every nation has different problems to confront. For example, Switzerland has different cantons which are vastly more culturally diverse, one from the next, than various US states are from each other. They speak four different languages, for starters. Similarly, Canada has the oddball of Quebec, which may as well be another country. Denmark, until relatively recently, had to manage the healthcare system of Greenland, which really is another country. Germany had to figure out a way to integrate two radically different economies when reunification happened, which meant bringing together two very different healthcare systems. Belgium has three different languages packed into a tiny country. San Marino needs to run its own national healthcare system with a total population smaller than many corporations. Japan had to build its system from scratch from the ruins of a bombed out civilization. Etc.

Where the real difference comes in is that those other countries just acknowledge their special challenges and move forward with solutions, whereas Americans like to whine about it endlessly, using it as an excuse not to move forward.
Yes but we have state power and authority. That makes it especially difficult. Look at how many states had issues with the ACA? Then the courts get involved and who knows what they will do these days? Its better if we lay the groundwork first so people can see how good it can run. Its when there are problems when we will see huge shifts in govt makeup that will lead to the downfall like we saw in 2010. People werent willing to pay for healthcare they didnt get when some states only had one insurer or no doctor for 200 miles. That has to be addressed.
 
Sep 2014
16,329
9,034
in the noggins of yip yappers
St
What am I being warned on. No name calling and foul words. Maybe you could pm me and explain.
Stop whining and use her screen name. You're PITiful baiting is not fit for here. Be a good woman and go mosh some PITatoes. ;)
 
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Feb 2010
30,932
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Sunny Bournemouth, Dorset
Higher taxes are higher taxes.

Now. Would you like to go in to detail on their taxes? Like how much higher their sales tax is?
Selecting individual taxes avades the fact that your false claim was called out. Nordic countries generally have a lower collective tax bill overall than the USA.
 
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Jul 2013
59,002
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Nashville, TN
But we do lack an infrastructure for a lot of it. We dont have the numbers of doctors or nurses. There still are communities up here where I live that dont have internet access. So while I agree, other countries laid out their plans first and then put ideas in place. Its apparent from the ACA we didnt do that we started with the healthcare plan and then worried about the infrastructure last. We have states and their govts to take into account. That makes us vastly different from Europe.
Nobody is saying it will be easy , what we are saying is the end product will be much better and cheaper. All these other countries are able to address these problems, why do we throw our hands up in despair ?
 
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Mar 2012
59,760
41,225
New Hampshire
Nobody is saying it will be easy , what we are saying is the end product will be much better and cheaper. All these other countries are able to address these problems, why do we throw our hands up in despair ?
Because we are impatient and crazy. Short memories too. We said for years we wanted better healthcare, then got it, then voted out all the people that gave it to us., Then we decided maybe we liked it after all and wanted those people back in. We yo yo so much that every time either side did anything the other would just come in and vote it all out. We are hugely inconsistent with our votes.
 
Sep 2017
5,469
6,537
Massachusetts
Yes but we have state power and authority. That makes it especially difficult. Look at how many states had issues with the ACA? Then the courts get involved and who knows what they will do these days? Its better if we lay the groundwork first so people can see how good it can run. Its when there are problems when we will see huge shifts in govt makeup that will lead to the downfall like we saw in 2010. People werent willing to pay for healthcare they didnt get when some states only had one insurer or no doctor for 200 miles. That has to be addressed.
I'm not sure our federal system really makes us that unique. Lots of countries have areas that are autonomous or semi-autonomous, like Northern Ireland, Wales, and Scotland in the UK, Svalbard in Norway, Heligoland, in Germany, the regions of Germany and Italy that use the Swiss Franc as currency, Greenland for Denmark, Corsica and New Caledonia for France, various islands for the Netherlands, South Tyrol for Italy, the Azores for Portugal, and so on.

And even aside from those odd-ball autonomous areas, most major countries have a state or province structure with sub-units having authority that acts as a check on national power. I used to live in the free state of Bavaria, for example, which was more independent from Germany as a whole, in a lot of ways, than US states are relative to the US as a whole. They had their own political parties, their own Minister President, their own constitution, their own legislature, and even political sub-divisions within the state, similar to our counties, and the whole system is set up consciously with the idea of the German states serving as checks and balances on the federal republic. Yet, again, the Germans don't use that as an excuse for why they can't get anything like healthcare done.

With Obamacare, there were growing pains, but it was overall a big improvement for the vast majority of people. It would be a real shame if we used that as an excuse to say we must delay implementation of healthcare reforms until we've first laid the groundwork so perfectly that nothing could possibly go wrong (which is tantamount to saying "let's stick with the shittiest system of any wealthy nation forever.") When you're the worst of all the advanced nations, practically any half-way reasonable change is going to be a change for the better.