Discussion of Israel should not include antisemitic tropes

Jun 2014
44,770
44,171
United States
#31
No one can get elected w/o kissing AIPAC's ring, so yes we do have to swear allegiance to another nation.

Well, that assertion is obviously not true, since Omar was elected. That said, AIPAC is a powerful lobbying organization, and when it comes to lobbyists and politicians, it really is, to some extent, all about the Benjamins.
 

The Man

Former Staff
Jul 2011
43,518
29,982
Toronto
#32
A. Someone here mentioned (among other examples of historical anti-Semitic incidents) "pogroms in Russia"; if you research deeper into that and look closer at the locations where many of the pogroms took place, you'll find a bulk of them were in Ukraine, rather than Russia proper; and perhaps the worst one - in Kishinev/Cisinau, capital of modern Moldova (ethnic Romanian). Just, for information. Ukrainians are much, much more anti-Semitic than Russians. There is a reason why, while there were Nazi collaborators among both peoples in WWII, very few, if any, Russians ever reduced themselves to actually working as guards in the death camps (most served as regular soldiers for the Germans and fought on the front lines, like General Vlasov and his army). Lots of Ukrainian guards in those camps, however...

Anyway

B. People from all over the world have served in the US military. I've read about lots of Russian immigrants who have. Chinese. Etc. Lots of people come to America from fucked up regimes and make new life there. And plenty among them join your military too. Russians have fought for America in Iraq and Afghanistan and other places. Shocking, I know lol And I got news for you: those guys would only be offended, if someone said people in the US shouldn't criticize Putin, on their account. If they liked Putin, they would have stayed home. I would have gone back too, I dare say.

That is what we ourselves find ourselves often not just telling, but yelling at other Russian emigres, who try to set up pro-Putin groups here and such. You love Putin so much? Fuck off back to the Motherland then! Canadians are too nice and polite to say so themselves. Me and others, not so much :)

I personally know Chinese people similarly fighting pro-CPC sentiments in their community. Etc. Dual loyalties is a real thing, especially among us immigrants, and it is our own responsibility IMHO to ourselves police our diasporas in that regard...

Only Jewish people think differently. They think being a patriot of Canada and Israel at once is possible. And plenty, yes, I am sorry, are patriots of Israel first. I have read of young Canadians who go to Israel to join IDF. They don't join Canadian army. No. IDF. What do you call that?
 

Chief

Former Staff
Nov 2009
31,296
17,888
SoCal
#33
I disagree. I think it had a lot to do with what Omar said, and put the reaction of some members of the Jewish-American community into the proper context. In this instance, it wasn't just a response to a sensitive topic. Whether she intended to or not, Omar engaged in perpetuating racial stereotypes, first with her "benjamins" comment and then by implying Jews have dual allegiances. If that's the note the dialogue begins on, it's doomed from the start, IMO.

I rather like this interpretation of the events. Maybe it will explain it better than I did.

I watched the first few minutes and then skimmed it.

I see lots of people talking about what she said, but never see her being filmed saying it. So, this is what I am talking about... I am not interested at all in someone telling me why I should be outraged. If Omar said something bad, show me the whole, exact, unfiltered quote, and I'll decide from that if it's a problem for me.
 
Likes: Dangermouse
Oct 2018
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3,567
Somewhere they can't find me.
#34
If I'm understanding you right, there's a problem with this line of thinking. I was very confused by the 'Benjamins' comment, but I think that's because I was missing American slang - it just means money, doesn't it? She was saying that support for Israel had been paid for by lobbyists?

If I've understood that right, then this is where I see the problem. If you're saying that we can't say that because of historical conspiracy theories about Jews buying influence; then you're saying we can't criticise any Israeli government policy that involves buying influence, ever. This seems a strange road to go down. It's like alleging that you shouldn't prosecute black people for crime in the US, because of racist tropes about blacks and crime.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding something, but it looks to me like using the spectre of racism to deflect criticism.



I suggest you watch the YT video I included with my post.

It explains this better than I can. And spares me having to type it out.
 
Oct 2018
2,799
3,567
Somewhere they can't find me.
#35
I watched the first few minutes and then skimmed it.

I see lots of people talking about what she said, but never see her being filmed saying it. So, this is what I am talking about... I am not interested at all in someone telling me why I should be outraged. If Omar said something bad, show me the whole, exact, unfiltered quote, and I'll decide from that if it's a problem for me.

Frankly, I don't care if you're outraged or not.

But try watching the video rather than skimming it; you'll see her in action.

It covers it rather well.
 

Chief

Former Staff
Nov 2009
31,296
17,888
SoCal
#36
Frankly, I don't care if you're outraged or not.

But try watching the video rather than skimming it; you'll see her in action.

It covers it rather well.
I'm going to pass then.

If folks are outraged over something they have never actually seen, then I'm just going to take it with a grain of salt.

I don't need analysis. Just the actual quote and I will decide for myself. So far no direct quote in context has been a problem for me.

If anything this thread proves her point.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk
 
Likes: Dangermouse
Jun 2011
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20,383
God Bless Texas
#38
She makes a good point. Why can we talk about the NRA, Big Pharma, all the other groups that influence congress but not AIPAC?
 
Likes: Chief
Jun 2011
48,786
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God Bless Texas
#39
Well, that assertion is obviously not true, since Omar was elected. That said, AIPAC is a powerful lobbying organization, and when it comes to lobbyists and politicians, it really is, to some extent, all about the Benjamins.
For President it is.
 
Jun 2011
48,786
20,383
God Bless Texas
#40
Veteran Democrats immediately called for a resolution to condemn anti-Semitism. But other Democrats, many on them at the younger end of the Democratic caucus, launched a surprise revolt, questioning if the party was unfairly piling on a freshman Muslim lawmaker and creating a double standard by putting greater emphasis on anti-Semitism compared with other forms of bigotry, including Islamophobia and white nationalism. They demanded and won a broader resolution, which condemned virtually all forms of discrimination. Progressive Democrats hope the Omar clash will reset debate in Congress over Israel