"Ethnic diversity harms a country's social trust"?

HCProf

Council Hall
Sep 2014
28,917
18,377
USA
#21
If you merged and integrated those people into an empty power vacuum you'd definitely have trouble.

If you took 20 Canadians and 20 Syrians and put them on a deserted island - I think within a week one group would be dead.

That's not what's happening.

You're taking a sampling of every culture on earth on dropping it into a rock-solid, established society based on the rule of law.

And that won't change.

So there's no debate. None. There's no "two sides" in conflict.

Newcomers, like my wife. Can keep their culture, their language, their religion, their private schools, their insular opinions. All of it. God bless.

But they'll follow the law. Period. End of discussion.

And things will go very hard for them if they think their religion or prejudices matter to the law. Gonna be some visits from the Ministry of Children and Families for starters.

I don't know who wrote this article but I'd bet my last dollar he lives somewhere in the boonies with, like, two immigrant families in it.

If he lived in Vancouver or Toronto or Montreal where the actual immigrants are he'd have better things to do with his time. And he'd also have a proofreader named "Sanjay Grewal" and an editor named "Ming Lee" that he had to submit his article through - haha.
My thoughts exactly. It really depends on where you live. I have grown up with diversity and it is as normal to me as apple pie. My personal physician is Indian, I had Indian and other foreign professors in college, I work with migrants, they are my neighbors, etc. TBH, I doubt that many Americans would know anything about Islam prior to 911. It was after 911, people took an interest in Islam and of course, found the worst parts of it. I grew up with Muslims my whole life around the Detroit area and never associated their dress or head coverings to their religion, just thought is was "arab clothes" :) It is surprising to see a outrage about immigration or diversity in 2020.....we have been around diversity for many decades now. It is not a new thing.
 
Oct 2014
33,166
6,066
C-A-N-A-D-A-Eh
#22
Islam certainly has a history of conquest. Second. Perhaps, only to Europeans. I don't think the crusades was a response to anything external. They were simply the result of Christendom needing something to do with a society built on a warrior class other than constantly fighting each other. They needed non-christians to fight so they'd stop fighting each other.

But I don't think these conquering traits are unique to Romans or Christians or Muslims or Germanics. I think they were just the most successful.

I've never met or heard of a single Canadian converting to Islam. After half a century of open immigration.
You are wrong about the crusades. It was about 400 years of incursions towards Italy, then the Vatican built their walls, and decided that enough was enough. They made 3 incursions into the area in and around modern day Israel. So, Europe are the bad guys for killing about 20% of those killed before they responded. That set them back, umm... 700-800 years.

The conversions have been much smaller and or less vocalized than in Europe. Off the top of my head I can think of a half dozen stories of women who joined Isis only to be raped to death when they arrived, or traded off as sex slaves, or similar.

Europe has a history of conquest, however European influence has done far more good than harm. When you really do the pro con".

The important factor is that where Europe, as a result of regular wars, decided to follow just war theory, Islam has maintained the religious convictions to continue to conquer for allah. Its been that way from about 200 years after Mohammad died.
 

Blues63

Moderator
Dec 2014
14,264
11,990
Tatooine
#23
Islam certainly has a history of conquest. Second. Perhaps, only to Europeans. I don't think the crusades was a response to anything external. They were simply the result of Christendom needing something to do with a society built on a warrior class other than constantly fighting each other. They needed non-christians to fight so they'd stop fighting each other.
I know it's a nitpick, but the First Crusade was a response to the plea of Alexios I of Constantinople for military aid in order to halt the Muslim incursions into Roman territory (Anatolia).(1)

You are right though, as some of the subsequent Crusader incursions into the Holy Lands were launched for plunder and glory (and it kept the Normans occupied as you state). There were nine Crusades, and some were to halt the expansion into European territory (Spain and France; Bulgaria and Wallachia), while others were launched simply to acquire booty.

(1) See The Alexiad, Anna Komnene, Penguin Books
 
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Rasselas

Former Staff
Feb 2010
71,090
47,988
USA
#24
It's not the DNA makeup or ethnicity that's a problem, it's when you try to merge and integrate people that have no similar values, worldviews and belief system.
Interestingly, the US has been very good at combining people from different values, worldviews and belief systems into Americans. Our culture is really powerful and attractive. It allows people of various values and belief systems to interact precisely because it puts money at the center of everything. You can make your life (and your community) almost whatever you want (so long as you don't break the law and pay your taxes) as long as you have money to pay for land and infrastructure and a community that cooperates together according to that value system. We have all sorts of religious minorities and a long history of people creating communities according to some idealist plan. They often fail, but not because their neighbors resent and attack them.
 
Jun 2014
61,627
35,976
Cleveland, Ohio
#25
It's not the DNA makeup or ethnicity that's a problem, it's when you try to merge and integrate people that have no similar values, worldviews and belief system.
Initially, mebbe. But in time, the children of immigrants always assimilate even if they keep separate. It is completely different being a Hassidic Jew in Brooklyn from being an Orthodox Jew in Israel.

Mostly, I think immigrants all have sorrow to one degree or another, grieving the loss of their homeland.
 

Rasselas

Former Staff
Feb 2010
71,090
47,988
USA
#26
Initially, mebbe. But in time, the children of immigrants always assimilate even if they keep separate. It is completely different being a Hassidic Jew in Brooklyn from being an Orthodox Jew in Israel.

Mostly, I think immigrants all have sorrow to one degree or another, grieving the loss of their homeland.
Sorrow is quite normal, though for most its eventually balanced out by loyalty to their new country. There are actually four definable stages to cultural assimilation; intense homesickness is stage two, and some people, especially older people who moved to be near their immigrant children, get stuck there. Most, though, get to stage four, at which point they have more loyalty to the new country than to the old one they left, and they identify with the new country as their home. That's basically what we ask people to do when they take the citizenship oath in order to be naturalized.
 
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The Man

Former Staff
Jul 2011
47,189
34,651
Toronto
#27
Initially, mebbe. But in time, the children of immigrants always assimilate even if they keep separate. It is completely different being a Hassidic Jew in Brooklyn from being an Orthodox Jew in Israel.

Mostly, I think immigrants all have sorrow to one degree or another, grieving the loss of their homeland.
SOME do.

I know among fellow Russians here in the West, it mainly breaks down into two extremes.

One group basically hate everything about the "old country", always talk about how corrupt, backward, etc, it is over there, and how much better here (and they do have valid points, certainly; but, it gets lost when they just go on and on about it, till the rest of us are sick of it, and of them...)

While the other are "long distance patriots", or "Putriots", these days lol Basically, just like those Chinese Communists in Canada also. Live here, enjoy all this place has to offer, but shit on it every day, while singing praises and glory to the old Motherland and to Putin. Just annoying, and more so, than the first group.

And then, there is the small minority of normal, rational, moderate folks, like me, who just want to live our fucking lives here, but get inevitably caught in the middle of the incessant verbal (at any Russian speaking community event one goes to) and online flame wars between those two groups above... lol
 
Sep 2013
45,640
36,738
On a hill
#28
It's not the DNA makeup or ethnicity that's a problem, it's when you try to merge and integrate people that have no similar values, worldviews and belief system.
The problem comes when people of diverse backgrounds claim a right to the same property, or cultural superiority.
 
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The Man

Former Staff
Jul 2011
47,189
34,651
Toronto
#30

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