Evangelical "lust" - Is Humility a virtue or a sin? How about Vanity?

Jun 2013
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#1
Did the Evangelicals that voted for Trump (because they couldn't vote for those who were sinners and wanted Trump to stop sinners?) ever actually read the Bible?

Donald Trump's vanity fest
Donald Trump's vanity fest

VANITY
What Does the Bible Say About Vanity?

HUMILITY
What Does the Bible Say About Humility?


What were/are they thinking........if in fact, they are thinking, at all?

Do they not see what everyone else (including HUGE numbers of Christians), can see?

They once were blind, but now can see? Can see what?
 
Likes: MaryAnne
Apr 2012
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#2
Knot, I really have no answer to your questions.

Listening to a Progressive Pastor who is traveling all over the Country to spread what the New Testament says on CSPan, I understood exactly what he was saying. He spoke in the words Jesus used.

Then they brought Tony Perkins on. A caller told him she used to be an Evangelical but had gone back to being a Christian because all they wanted was Money, million dollar homes and Jets.

Those two sentences pretty well describe my feelings. I can even be a Christian with out stepping foot in the Church Door.
 
Likes: KnotaFrayed
Jun 2013
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#3
Knot, I really have no answer to your questions.

Listening to a Progressive Pastor who is traveling all over the Country to spread what the New Testament says on CSPan, I understood exactly what he was saying. He spoke in the words Jesus used.

Then they brought Tony Perkins on. A caller told him she used to be an Evangelical but had gone back to being a Christian because all they wanted was Money, million dollar homes and Jets.

Those two sentences pretty well describe my feelings. I can even be a Christian with out stepping foot in the Church Door.
Have you ever heard of the "Church of the Blue Sky" MaryAnne? While "Blue Sky" has been adopted and incorporated into some actual church names.......there is an informal meaning that essentially takes the notion that god, including a Christian God, is everywhere and everywhere is his church. Nature is literally "God's Country" and his "creation", perhaps more so than man made structures. Included in that is the notion that god, does not care where one thinks about him/her or prays. When young, I would attend Catholic services with a friend, when they were still performed using Latin. I looked around and couldn't help notice how people were doing things by rote, no so much with sincerity and with any consciousness of what they were hearing, absorbing or comprehending, in large part, because most there, could not understand Latin, but they went through the motions and just being in church seemed to be the most important thing of all. Miss church!!???? Oh man, were you a DEEP sinner......yet that does NOT make sense, but for the notion of adherence to attention of a specific church (and the collection plate?) .....if one believes god was the creator of all things, is all seeing and all knowing. Why not communicate with god in the midst of his creation, rather inside a human creation?

I don't know if you have read the book "A Soldier of the Great War" by Mark Helprin.....a long, somewhat surreal, but captivating book (for some) about WWI and Italy. In it there is a small story about how the protagonist, a mountain climber (a lot of WWI was fought in the Dolomite Mountains in Italy) and as a boy, he would climb churches for practice........ He speaks of the irony of how he felt closer to God in the mountains than when he was climbing the sides of churches and the priests would yell at him for doing so, In many ways that epitomizes how in some ways organized religion works against itself and the notion of its gods, even to the point of contradicting what they are teaching in sermons and worshiping. Many young people, as well as thoughtful and honest people of all ages, have become turned off by the hypocrisy of some religious leaders, the dogma and contradictory interpretations of belief when compared to scripture and the overall and general scheme of the vast majority of Christ's teachings as related by the authors of the New Testament, taken with the Old...........

Unfortunately, there always seems to have been those who recognized a way to exploit some of the most profound beliefs (religious) any humans have.....and those believes are founded in faith that god(s) do indeed exist......Who can take that faith away anymore than anyone can take away someone's faith that there are no such things as god(s)? Those who recognized a way to exploit those who have faith in god(s) also recognized a means to force faith upon people, by the use of fear and the wrath of the god(s) if one did not "behave" according to the wishes of the god(s) and a clap of thunder, the death of someone in the community could be used by these exploiters to strike the fear of god and herd people to "faith" based on those fears. At the same time and parallel to all the exploiters, were those with profound belief and faith and built "churches" or perhaps fewer actual structural churches, than congregations, all centered around people who believed in their god(s) not because of fear, but as a means to explain some things and keep "hope" in a place in their mind, if not someplace in the universe, by way of believing god(s) are indeed, "out there" and responsible for, creation. By "creation" they do not strictly adhere to the argument against evolution, but see evolution as a natural part of what was born out of the creation of nature and humans being only one aspect of nature and the creation.

The exploiters have exploited people's faith to direct all sorts of money and wealth to individuals who skew scripture to suggest funneling money to them is as good as funneling money to god......They have in many ways, made themselves, surrogates for god(s) and gotten some people to have "faith" in them and the way they skew scripture and the teachings of Christ to work their personal agendas. "Faith" being something that is hard to remove, is unlikely to change in those whom exploiters have directed towards themselves for their personal profit and agendas......but others who appear to be able to read what is clearly said and capture the main theme of Christ's teachings corroborated across the authors of the books, are not buying what they see those who are exploiting belief or faith in gods(s), are selling and just as you have, questioned how anyone, can buy it, but for not really taking the time to compare what they are being told and how they are directed by some, with what the books of the Bible, even with so many contradictions, still teaches, as an overall and general theme........

It is said, even Mother Teresa questioned her faith, for a variety of reasons and so did so many other heralded religious figures, some of them canonized.........How could such a merciful god, also allow such suffering and starvation.....she would ponder......as so many others ponder the contradictions of reality and claims of their god(s) "kinder, gentler" side.......Still they found reason, in their minds to continue to have faith, perhaps by finding positive signs, among the despair......perhaps from delusion, but faith seems to be the kind of thing that only those that possess it, can know, what it is all about.....thus, why it is so hard to dislodge or change for any that try to seek to change the faith of others.

But for the sharing and support of others, which still could be made by others that share your faith and your feelings about your faith and the faith of others being exploited for the personal agenda and profit of some, there seems no reason why your faith could not be as strong as it ever was, without, as you said, stepping one foot, into a church. I believe there are perhaps surprising numbers of people around the world who feel the same way and still have strong faith in god(s), but do not step one foot into the places of worship, built by humans they are feeling have exploited faith and turned it into a vessel for the personal profit and agendas, of a few. You can still give to those in need, in some ways more directly and there remain "churches" or congregations of people who dedicate their faith, to doing good works for those in need. What the exploiters have done to drive many away is harm faith in their churches and thus whatever monies collected in the plates that went to those in need, rather than to the construction and maintenance of mega-churches, mega mansions for mega church preachers, mega audio visual equipment, 54 million dollar jets for mega church preachers and more......are hurt by those turned off by those who exploit faith and the faithful, funneling money to their personal bank accounts and political agendas, under the guise of "men/women" of "God".
 
Last edited:
Apr 2012
59,766
44,742
Englewood,Ohio
#4
I
Have you ever heard of the "Church of the Blue Sky" MaryAnne? While "Blue Sky" has been adopted and incorporated into some actual church names.......there is an informal meaning that essentially takes the notion that god, including a Christian God, is everywhere and everywhere is his church. Nature is literally "God's Country" and his "creation", perhaps more so than man made structures. Included in that is the notion that god, does not care where one thinks about him/her or prays. When young, I would attend Catholic services with a friend, when they were still performed using Latin. I looked around and couldn't help notice how people were doing things by rote, no so much with sincerity and with any consciousness of what they were hearing, absorbing or comprehending, in large part, because most there, could not understand Latin, but they went through the motions and just being in church seemed to be the most important thing of all. Miss church!!???? Oh man, were you a DEEP sinner......yet that does NOT make sense, but for the notion of adherence to attention of a specific church (and the collection plate?) .....if one believes god was the creator of all things, is all seeing and all knowing. Why not communicate with god in the midst of his creation, rather inside a human creation?

I don't know if you have read the book "A Soldier of the Great War" by Mark Helprin.....a long, somewhat surreal, but captivating book (for some) about WWI and Italy. In it there is a small story about how the protagonist, a mountain climber (a lot of WWI was fought in the Dolomite Mountains in Italy) and as a boy, he would climb churches for practice........ He speaks of the irony of how he felt closer to God in the mountains than when he was climbing the sides of churches and the priests would yell at him for doing so, In many ways that epitomizes how in some ways organized religion works against itself and the notion of its gods, even to the point of contradicting what they are teaching in sermons and worshiping. Many young people, as well as thoughtful and honest people of all ages, have become turned off by the hypocrisy of some religious leaders, the dogma and contradictory interpretations of belief when compared to scripture and the overall and general scheme of the vast majority of Christ's teachings as related by the authors of the New Testament, taken with the Old...........

Unfortunately, there always seems to have been those who recognized a way to exploit some of the most profound beliefs (religious) any humans have.....and those believes are founded in faith that god(s) do indeed exist......Who can take that faith away anymore than anyone can take away someone's faith that there are no such things as god(s)? Those who recognized a way to exploit those who have faith in god(s) also recognized a means to force faith upon people, by the use of fear and the wrath of the god(s) if one did not "behave" according to the wishes of the god(s) and a clap of thunder, the death of someone in the community could be used by these exploiters to strike the fear of god and herd people to "faith" based on those fears. At the same time and parallel to all the exploiters, were those with profound belief and faith and built "churches" or perhaps fewer actual structural churches, than congregations, all centered around people who believed in their god(s) not because of fear, but as a means to explain some things and keep "hope" in a place in their mind, if not someplace in the universe, by way of believing god(s) are indeed, "out there" and responsible for, creation. By "creation" they do not strictly adhere to the argument against evolution, but see evolution as a natural part of what was born out of the creation of nature and humans being only one aspect of nature and the creation.

The exploiters have exploited people's faith to direct all sorts of money and wealth to individuals who skew scripture to suggest funneling money to them is as good as funneling money to god......They have in many ways, made themselves, surrogates for god(s) and gotten some people to have "faith" in them and the way they skew scripture and the teachings of Christ to work their personal agendas. "Faith" being something that is hard to remove, is unlikely to change in those whom exploiters have directed towards themselves for their personal profit and agendas......but others who appear to be able to read what is clearly said and capture the main theme of Christ's teachings corroborated across the authors of the books, are not buying what they see those who are exploiting belief or faith in gods(s), are selling and just as you have, questioned how anyone, can buy it, but for not really taking the time to compare what they are being told and how they are directed by some, with what the books of the Bible, even with so many contradictions, still teaches, as an overall and general theme........

It is said, even Mother Teresa questioned her faith, for a variety of reasons and so did so many other heralded religious figures, some of them canonized.........How could such a merciful god, also allow such suffering and starvation.....she would ponder......as so many others ponder the contradictions of reality and claims of their god(s) "kinder, gentler" side.......Still they found reason, in their minds to continue to have faith, perhaps by finding positive signs, among the despair......perhaps from delusion, but faith seems to be the kind of thing that only those that possess it, can know, what it is all about.....thus, why it is so hard to dislodge or change for any that try to seek to change the faith of others.

But for the sharing and support of others, which still could be made by others that share your faith and your feelings about your faith and the faith of others being exploited for the personal agenda and profit of some, there seems no reason why your faith could not be as strong as it ever was, without, as you said, stepping one foot, into a church. I believe there are perhaps surprising numbers of people around the world who feel the same way and still have strong faith in god(s), but do not step one foot into the places of worship, built by humans they are feeling have exploited faith and turned it into a vessel for the personal profit and agendas, of a few. You can still give to those in need, in some ways more directly and there remain "churches" or congregations of people who dedicate their faith, to doing good works for those in need. What the exploiters have done to drive many away is harm faith in their churches and thus whatever monies collected in the plates that went to those in need, rather than to the construction and maintenance of mega-churches, mega mansions for mega church preachers, mega audio visual equipment, 54 million dollar jets for mega church preachers and more......are hurt by those turned off by those who exploit faith and the faithful, funneling money to their personal bank accounts and political agendas, under the guise of "men/women" of "God".
I really have no answer to that fine post.

As a cild I used to lie in the yard, look up at the sky and wonder about the meaning of life.

As an adult I have searched through very bad times and good. Not satisfied in my mind.

Finally I have satified in my mind that you live each day the best you can, be kind, help others, and enjoy.
 
Jan 2007
7,548
480
Irrelevant
#5
Have you ever heard of the "Church of the Blue Sky" MaryAnne? While "Blue Sky" has been adopted and incorporated into some actual church names.......there is an informal meaning that essentially takes the notion that god, including a Christian God, is everywhere and everywhere is his church. Nature is literally "God's Country" and his "creation", perhaps more so than man made structures. Included in that is the notion that god, does not care where one thinks about him/her or prays. When young, I would attend Catholic services with a friend, when they were still performed using Latin. I looked around and couldn't help notice how people were doing things by rote, no so much with sincerity and with any consciousness of what they were hearing, absorbing or comprehending, in large part, because most there, could not understand Latin, but they went through the motions and just being in church seemed to be the most important thing of all. Miss church!!???? Oh man, were you a DEEP sinner......yet that does NOT make sense, but for the notion of adherence to attention of a specific church (and the collection plate?) .....if one believes god was the creator of all things, is all seeing and all knowing. Why not communicate with god in the midst of his creation, rather inside a human creation?

I don't know if you have read the book "A Soldier of the Great War" by Mark Helprin.....a long, somewhat surreal, but captivating book (for some) about WWI and Italy. In it there is a small story about how the protagonist, a mountain climber (a lot of WWI was fought in the Dolomite Mountains in Italy) and as a boy, he would climb churches for practice........ He speaks of the irony of how he felt closer to God in the mountains than when he was climbing the sides of churches and the priests would yell at him for doing so, In many ways that epitomizes how in some ways organized religion works against itself and the notion of its gods, even to the point of contradicting what they are teaching in sermons and worshiping. Many young people, as well as thoughtful and honest people of all ages, have become turned off by the hypocrisy of some religious leaders, the dogma and contradictory interpretations of belief when compared to scripture and the overall and general scheme of the vast majority of Christ's teachings as related by the authors of the New Testament, taken with the Old...........
Wow. Latin liturgies have been stopped over fifty years ago -- before I was even born.

In any case, going to church is a way to commune with god as a community. You want to commune with god on top of a mountain all by your lonesome? That's fine. Personally, I prefer that also. But praying as a community also has its merits -- that one does not only see his relationship with god as personal but also within the context of a community.

As for the absurdity of repetitive prayer (formula prayer), the point is about quieting the mind to a point that it becomes susceptible to deep contemplation -- like a mantra. If that doesn't work for you, its perfectly fine. To others, it does work and that is the point of worshiping as a community -- that it's not always about you.

Unfortunately, there always seems to have been those who recognized a way to exploit some of the most profound beliefs (religious) any humans have.....and those believes are founded in faith that god(s) do indeed exist......Who can take that faith away anymore than anyone can take away someone's faith that there are no such things as god(s)? Those who recognized a way to exploit those who have faith in god(s) also recognized a means to force faith upon people, by the use of fear and the wrath of the god(s) if one did not "behave" according to the wishes of the god(s) and a clap of thunder, the death of someone in the community could be used by these exploiters to strike the fear of god and herd people to "faith" based on those fears. At the same time and parallel to all the exploiters, were those with profound belief and faith and built "churches" or perhaps fewer actual structural churches, than congregations, all centered around people who believed in their god(s) not because of fear, but as a means to explain some things and keep "hope" in a place in their mind, if not someplace in the universe, by way of believing god(s) are indeed, "out there" and responsible for, creation. By "creation" they do not strictly adhere to the argument against evolution, but see evolution as a natural part of what was born out of the creation of nature and humans being only one aspect of nature and the creation.

The exploiters have exploited people's faith to direct all sorts of money and wealth to individuals who skew scripture to suggest funneling money to them is as good as funneling money to god......They have in many ways, made themselves, surrogates for god(s) and gotten some people to have "faith" in them and the way they skew scripture and the teachings of Christ to work their personal agendas. "Faith" being something that is hard to remove, is unlikely to change in those whom exploiters have directed towards themselves for their personal profit and agendas......but others who appear to be able to read what is clearly said and capture the main theme of Christ's teachings corroborated across the authors of the books, are not buying what they see those who are exploiting belief or faith in gods(s), are selling and just as you have, questioned how anyone, can buy it, but for not really taking the time to compare what they are being told and how they are directed by some, with what the books of the Bible, even with so many contradictions, still teaches, as an overall and general theme........
I agree. Other people will always find ways to exploit other people -- and not just through faith. The question is does one need to reject one's faith just because others will always try to exploit it? Take your political processes, for instance. It isn't perfect and a lot of people exploit it for personal gain. But you do not do away with political processes because to do so sends everything to chaos.

It is said, even Mother Teresa questioned her faith, for a variety of reasons and so did so many other heralded religious figures, some of them canonized.........How could such a merciful god, also allow such suffering and starvation.....she would ponder......as so many others ponder the contradictions of reality and claims of their god(s) "kinder, gentler" side.......Still they found reason, in their minds to continue to have faith, perhaps by finding positive signs, among the despair......perhaps from delusion, but faith seems to be the kind of thing that only those that possess it, can know, what it is all about.....thus, why it is so hard to dislodge or change for any that try to seek to change the faith of others.
Precisely!

Faith isn't some isolated and dormant thing. For faith to have any meaning, it must ,manifest in how one lives his life. And it is perfectly fine to question one's faith. The fact that you are able to question your faith means that your faith is alive and well.

But for the sharing and support of others, which still could be made by others that share your faith and your feelings about your faith and the faith of others being exploited for the personal agenda and profit of some, there seems no reason why your faith could not be as strong as it ever was, without, as you said, stepping one foot, into a church. I believe there are perhaps surprising numbers of people around the world who feel the same way and still have strong faith in god(s), but do not step one foot into the places of worship, built by humans they are feeling have exploited faith and turned it into a vessel for the personal profit and agendas, of a few. You can still give to those in need, in some ways more directly and there remain "churches" or congregations of people who dedicate their faith, to doing good works for those in need. What the exploiters have done to drive many away is harm faith in their churches and thus whatever monies collected in the plates that went to those in need, rather than to the construction and maintenance of mega-churches, mega mansions for mega church preachers, mega audio visual equipment, 54 million dollar jets for mega church preachers and more......are hurt by those turned off by those who exploit faith and the faithful, funneling money to their personal bank accounts and political agendas, under the guise of "men/women" of "God".
Churches are grand because they are supposed to mirror god's grandeur. They represent the pinnacle of human artistic expression -- which naturally costs money. And since no one forced you to part with your own hard-earned money to build them, why would you begrudge others who are willing to do just that?

I'm sure you are speaking from some moral outrage against profligacy -- something that could have been used for more altruistic pursuits (and I admit that I would tend to agree) but the thing is, there will always be someone somewhere who needs other people's help. Some people give to the poor rather than to the church. Other people give to the church so that the church could help the poor. Still others give to the church so that they feel good about themselves.

As long as no one is forcing you, its all good.
 
Last edited:

Jets

Former Staff
Feb 2011
22,886
13,190
New York
#6
Unfortunately, there are a
Did the Evangelicals that voted for Trump (because they couldn't vote for those who were sinners and wanted Trump to stop sinners?) ever actually read the Bible?

Donald Trump's vanity fest
Donald Trump's vanity fest

VANITY
What Does the Bible Say About Vanity?

HUMILITY
What Does the Bible Say About Humility?


What were/are they thinking........if in fact, they are thinking, at all?

Do they not see what everyone else (including HUGE numbers of Christians), can see?

They once were blind, but now can see? Can see what?
Unfortunately, there are a large number of pseudo-Christians masquerading as legitimate ones. Donald Trump did not deserve their vote. Politics seemed more important than personal faith...
 

Babba

Former Staff
Jul 2007
75,931
66,648
So. Md.
#7
Unfortunately, there are a


Unfortunately, there are a large number of pseudo-Christians masquerading as legitimate ones. Donald Trump did not deserve their vote. Politics seemed more important than personal faith...
Exactly. They essentially sold their souls.
 
Jun 2013
18,092
15,760
Here
#8
Wow. Latin liturgies have been stopped over fifty years ago -- before I was even born.

In any case, going to church is a way to commune with god as a community. You want to commune with god on top of a mountain all by your lonesome? That's fine. Personally, I prefer that also. But praying as a community also has its merits -- that one does not only see his relationship with god as personal but also within the context of a community.

As for the absurdity of repetitive prayer (formula prayer), the point is about quieting the mind to a point that it becomes susceptible to deep contemplation -- like a mantra. If that doesn't work for you, its perfectly fine. To others, it does work and that is the point of worshiping as a community -- that it's not always about you.



I agree. Other people will always find ways to exploit other people -- and not just through faith. The question is does one need to reject one's faith just because others will always try to exploit it? Take your political processes, for instance. It isn't perfect and a lot of people exploit it for personal gain. But you do not do away with political processes because to do so sends everything to chaos.



Precisely!

Faith isn't some isolated and dormant thing. For faith to have any meaning, it must ,manifest in how one lives his life. And it is perfectly fine to question one's faith. The fact that you are able to question your faith means that your faith is alive and well.



Churches are grand because they are supposed to mirror god's grandeur. They represent the pinnacle of human artistic expression -- which naturally costs money. And since no one forced you to part with your own hard-earned money to build them, why would you begrudge others who are willing to do just that?

I'm sure you are speaking from some moral outrage against profligacy -- something that could have been used for more altruistic pursuits (and I admit that I would tend to agree) but the thing is, there will always be someone somewhere who needs other people's help. Some people give to the poor rather than to the church. Other people give to the church so that the church could help the poor. Still others give to the church so that they feel good about themselves.

As long as no one is forcing you, its all good.
Your very last line is the only thing that holds the most truth.

For many many people, nature (created by God) is FAR grander than ANYTHING humans construct in their minds regarding what represents their god(s).

Perhaps all god wants is for people to see ALL people as their "community" (NOT just those who think alike - See what Matthew 5 says about loving only one's brethren) and rather than spend years of labor and riches on grand cathedrals, spend it on the needy in the community which is one's god's creation.

One might ask why you appear to begrudge anyone that might think differently or see faith in god(s) differently or believe there are no gods. This is what I was getting at. Those who sit in church every Sunday or more often and put a few bucks in the collection plate, who seem to believe that is all they need do to claim "faith" in Christ.....along with praying for requests or going to confession, to "cleanse" themselves or ask for forgiveness, then turn around and do the same stuff all over again or walk out of church and totally defy much of what the sermon was about and what their bible generally teaches with regard to who created the universe and all in it, when it comes to how humans treat other humans.

Some will walk out of church and instead of promoting "turn the other cheek" and dying as Christ did (not calling on God to defend him or using powers to defend himself), not only turning the other cheek, but asking for forgiveness those who nailed him to a cross and stuck a spear into his side (Why? Because they knew not, what they were doing. (according to the same Bible all Christians read and all people, including non-Christians can read.), they promote excuses to keep deadly weapons to defend themselves against their fellow human beings. They leave church and call the police on someone who is black because the color of their skin makes them "suspicious"......They condemn others who do not attend church.....Why? If it is NOT about forcing you/someone, then why the centuries of blood spilled over the question of WHICH form of Christian faith, was going to dominate? That's even before one considers all those tried and punished as "heritics" for daring to question or failing to "approve" of a certain belief in someone's God?

You do not seem to understand that I never said people need to reject their faith. What I have said is that some people are losing their faith in humans that try to dictate faith and those who try to dictate faith that does not align with what is written. Some people are losing their faith in human created "religions" that were either created to exploit a person's faith in god(s) for the profit and benefit of the few who invented the "religion" or have become full of people who have lost sight of what the Bible teaches and have come to view their religious organization as a social club with a political leaning, instead of spiritual meaning. There are "churches" that remain strong, because they focus on the inclusiveness of all of their god's creation, not in setting their "belief" against the beliefs of others. They do not focus on attendance in church or large amounts of dollars to spend on grand places of worship, they do as Christ did. Go out in the community and do good works, they live good lives and they treat all others and all things, as God's creation. The do not force anyone, by fear and threats to become one of them, they embrace anyone that sees merit in how they live and wants to live the same way.

Unfortunately for some monumental size religious institutions, their dogma, hypocrisy and involvement in politics (taking sides) is hurting them and any part of them which has done and remains doing good works for those in need. If there might be any plus in that, the disillusioned (about organized religion) may still contribute and do good works for those in need, without supporting grand physical structures, the multi-million dollar homes and incomes of "preachers" or things like $54 million dollar private jets to get around and spread the word of a man who owned practically nothing and rode a donkey, to spread his word.
 
Jun 2013
18,092
15,760
Here
#9
I

I really have no answer to that fine post.

As a cild I used to lie in the yard, look up at the sky and wonder about the meaning of life.

As an adult I have searched through very bad times and good. Not satisfied in my mind.

Finally I have satified in my mind that you live each day the best you can, be kind, help others, and enjoy.
MaryAnne, what it appears you have done is ponder and it seems the world needs a lot more ponderers and people who spend time thinking about things and considering all angles, not just everything from their own point of view. I don't know if enough people really sit down and honestly contemplate what it is like to be the person sitting next to them, opposite them or born halfway around the world.

I do not know, but I suspect the ushering in of the concept that "greed is good" and an era that has taken up that credo, consciously or unwittingly (oddly, many of them, the same people that once protested greed in their youth) has contributed to a lot more people seeing only one side of any issue and that side being the one that profits them and rejecting anything that does not profit them or might be a sacrifice for them. I believe selfishness may be a part of our instinctual survival, but only to a degree and humans at one time seemed to have a better grip on it, than now and at least had expanded thought which considered more than just themselves, perhaps as part of human evolution, civility and perhaps getting closer to the "Golden Rule". Now it seems we all want others to treat us with respect and kindness, but many do not want to reciprocate, either because the thought to, never comes to their attention or they somehow consciously decide that they do not have to reciprocate and that everyone else need to be the considerate ones. In essence, it suggests that some people expect others, to be more thoughtful, considerate and respectful, than they are.

This is why it seems to alien to hear the reasons behind why people voted for Trump. "He tells it like it is" - "he says what we're all feeling, but cannot say"????? What does that mean when one asks the question of why does anyone feel they can't say it? Is it because it is NOT civil, it does NOT exercise self control and it sows the seeds of discourse? What about when someone, like the press, "tells it like it is" ABOUT Trump? Why is that not equally lauded or accepted, when it is unflattering and truthful, about Trump???

To me, such examples are one way thinking and what's behind, one way thinking?
 
Jan 2007
7,548
480
Irrelevant
#10
Your very last line is the only thing that holds the most truth.

For many many people, nature (created by God) is FAR grander than ANYTHING humans construct in their minds regarding what represents their god(s).

Perhaps all god wants is for people to see ALL people as their "community" (NOT just those who think alike - See what Matthew 5 says about loving only one's brethren) and rather than spend years of labor and riches on grand cathedrals, spend it on the needy in the community which is one's god's creation.
I said grand churches 'mirror' god's grandeur. Human artistic expression was never meant to equal or surpass god's grandeur. It does, however, try to emulate that grandeur as befits mankind's role as co-author of creation.

One might ask why you appear to begrudge anyone that might think differently or see faith in god(s) differently or believe there are no gods. This is what I was getting at. Those who sit in church every Sunday or more often and put a few bucks in the collection plate, who seem to believe that is all they need do to claim "faith" in Christ.....along with praying for requests or going to confession, to "cleanse" themselves or ask for forgiveness, then turn around and do the same stuff all over again or walk out of church and totally defy much of what the sermon was about and what their bible generally teaches with regard to who created the universe and all in it, when it comes to how humans treat other humans.
I do not begrudge anyone their opinions. I am merely speaking in behalf of catholicism from what I understand of it. People express faith very differently. As long as this is an honest expression, then it's all good.

In fact, I would go further and say that the belief in some transcendent and immutable good is a form of faith. After all, what is god if not a good that is personified in our minds?

Some will walk out of church and instead of promoting "turn the other cheek" and dying as Christ did (not calling on God to defend him or using powers to defend himself), not only turning the other cheek, but asking for forgiveness those who nailed him to a cross and stuck a spear into his side (Why? Because they knew not, what they were doing. (according to the same Bible all Christians read and all people, including non-Christians can read.), they promote excuses to keep deadly weapons to defend themselves against their fellow human beings. They leave church and call the police on someone who is black because the color of their skin makes them "suspicious"......They condemn others who do not attend church.....Why? If it is NOT about forcing you/someone, then why the centuries of blood spilled over the question of WHICH form of Christian faith, was going to dominate? That's even before one considers all those tried and punished as "heritics" for daring to question or failing to "approve" of a certain belief in someone's God?

You do not seem to understand that I never said people need to reject their faith. What I have said is that some people are losing their faith in humans that try to dictate faith and those who try to dictate faith that does not align with what is written. Some people are losing their faith in human created "religions" that were either created to exploit a person's faith in god(s) for the profit and benefit of the few who invented the "religion" or have become full of people who have lost sight of what the Bible teaches and have come to view their religious organization as a social club with a political leaning, instead of spiritual meaning. There are "churches" that remain strong, because they focus on the inclusiveness of all of their god's creation, not in setting their "belief" against the beliefs of others. They do not focus on attendance in church or large amounts of dollars to spend on grand places of worship, they do as Christ did. Go out in the community and do good works, they live good lives and they treat all others and all things, as God's creation. The do not force anyone, by fear and threats to become one of them, they embrace anyone that sees merit in how they live and wants to live the same way.

Unfortunately for some monumental size religious institutions, their dogma, hypocrisy and involvement in politics (taking sides) is hurting them and any part of them which has done and remains doing good works for those in need. If there might be any plus in that, the disillusioned (about organized religion) may still contribute and do good works for those in need, without supporting grand physical structures, the multi-million dollar homes and incomes of "preachers" or things like $54 million dollar private jets to get around and spread the word of a man who owned practically nothing and rode a donkey, to spread his word.
What can I say? A church, like the state, is a form of political association hence the practical necessities in perpetuating the association is parallel, if not the same. Neither is perfect. But they are necessary, if we imagine human existence, as we know it, to continue.