Forcing "prophecy"

Jun 2013
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#1
It is said that "Armageddon" will precipitate or be a part of the precipitation of the second coming of Christ and for this reason, some who claim to believe in Christ have not just cozied up to Israel (to the discomfort of a fair number of Jews, because of the reasons behind the coziness and friendliness), but some, by their actions appear to be actively working in ways that would essentially "set off" an Armageddon type event, under the assumption they would see the other side of it on the "right hand" of God.

A couple of questions.

What does the Bible say about one assuming righteousness for themselves, rather than leaving that up to their God to judge?

If an Armageddon type destruction by fire (caused by human made weapons) event is essentially the result of those trying to force a prophecy because they believe they would personally benefit from it, has the prophecy really been fulfilled and count as fulfillment of the destruction by fire part of the prophecy that will lead to the rest of the prophecy or will it simply be an Armageddon like event that only includes the destruction by fire, but not all the "good stuff" those working to cause the event were expecting/assuming for themselves?

Even if an Armageddon type event came from out of the blue and could in no way be attributed to any human contributions to forcing it to occur, what if all the expectant, assuming "Christians" came face to face with their maker and he told them they were wrong to assume/usurp his judgement about them and sent them to the dark, rather than the light side of the aftermath?

My interpretation is that in the eyes of God, humility is a good thing/virtue, mainly because he doesn't want or warrant any competition for his judgement. Thus when anyone assumes to know or thinks they know how God will ultimately judge them and their lives, they are in effect, not adhering to their own beliefs by not deferring to God for judgement of them.

So they go to all this trouble of trying to drum up a destruction by fire, thinking they know how God will judge them and find that God and find God says, no no, you have it all wrong, especially the part where you assume I would judge you to be righteous. Self-righteous perhaps, but that is different than righteous.

Thoughts?
 
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johnflesh

Former Staff
Feb 2007
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#2
It's been suggested many times before. Both by those seeking to understand and/or accuse as well as suggested as an appropriate action by some religious people.

Lines are often drawn between locations and relationships as signs of action towards that goal. I won't go into specifics since I am not deeply educated on these subjects but points like: relationships between Christians and Israel, the Dome of the Rock, Temple Mount, 2nd Coming groups, War against Islam, etc.

If what the bible says is true about the end, many believe that is not a bad thing and welcome it - they believe it will benefit all mankind, not just religious people. That's what they use to justify their action, right or wrong in anyone's eyes.

EDIT: Here is an interesting little article published in 1998 in the New Yorker - Forcing the End
 
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Jun 2013
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#3
It's been suggested many times before. Both by those seeking to understand and/or accuse as well as suggested as an appropriate action by some religious people.

Lines are often drawn between locations and relationships as signs of action towards that goal. I won't go into specifics since I am not deeply educated on these subjects but points like: relationships between Christians and Israel, the Dome of the Rock, Temple Mount, 2nd Coming groups, War against Islam, etc.

If what the bible says is true about the end, many believe that is not a bad thing and welcome it - they believe it will benefit all mankind, not just religious people. That's what they use to justify their action, right or wrong in anyone's eyes.

EDIT: Here is an interesting little article published in 1998 in the New Yorker - Forcing the End
Thank you for the link, johnflesh. I have read similar articles regarding the same, which always raise the question.

Here is more, one part being more specific to those who may believe or assume, they fall within the category of "righteous". It, as you point out, is somewhat complex and complicated to the point one might ask, which is truly the "righteous" belief or "path" when there are so many to chose from and all claim to be THE WAY......Still there seems a lot of discussion about false teachers, Satan and the forces of "good" that will defeat Satan (in various ways and lengths of time) "Cleanse" the earth and "spare" the righteous.......but who truly are, the "righteous" who will be spared and the question remains, would attempt to force prophecy make someone "righteous", would an assumption of self-righteousness make one truly righteous and isn't there something false and artificial about a "prophecy" that was forced or the intended outcome of efforts by those who wanted to force it, based on their assumption of righteousness (self-righteousness).

Jehovah's Witnesses
See also: Eschatology of Jehovah's Witnesses
Jehovah's Witnesses believe that Armageddon is the means by which God will fulfill his purpose for the Earth to be populated with happy healthy humans free of sin and death.[33] They teach that the armies of heaven will eradicate all who oppose the Kingdom of God, wiping out all wicked humans on Earth, leaving only righteous mankind.[34]
Armageddon - Wikipedia

Dispensationalism - Wikipedia


I suppose the question I am asking is an impossible one to answer, but it does beg a lot more questions about anyone who might be assuming that participating in the forcing of an Armageddon like/associated "cleansing" of the earth will see them among the "righteous mankind" left, following such an event.

As far as I can tell, pretty much all participants on all sides of any war, believe their position is right, if not righteous. One might wonder how that works when it comes to the judgement of their god(s).
 
Jan 2007
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#4
It is said that "Armageddon" will precipitate or be a part of the precipitation of the second coming of Christ and for this reason, some who claim to believe in Christ have not just cozied up to Israel (to the discomfort of a fair number of Jews, because of the reasons behind the coziness and friendliness), but some, by their actions appear to be actively working in ways that would essentially "set off" an Armageddon type event, under the assumption they would see the other side of it on the "right hand" of God.

A couple of questions.

What does the Bible say about one assuming righteousness for themselves, rather than leaving that up to their God to judge?

If an Armageddon type destruction by fire (caused by human made weapons) event is essentially the result of those trying to force a prophecy because they believe they would personally benefit from it, has the prophecy really been fulfilled and count as fulfillment of the destruction by fire part of the prophecy that will lead to the rest of the prophecy or will it simply be an Armageddon like event that only includes the destruction by fire, but not all the "good stuff" those working to cause the event were expecting/assuming for themselves?

Even if an Armageddon type event came from out of the blue and could in no way be attributed to any human contributions to forcing it to occur, what if all the expectant, assuming "Christians" came face to face with their maker and he told them they were wrong to assume/usurp his judgement about them and sent them to the dark, rather than the light side of the aftermath?

My interpretation is that in the eyes of God, humility is a good thing/virtue, mainly because he doesn't want or warrant any competition for his judgement. Thus when anyone assumes to know or thinks they know how God will ultimately judge them and their lives, they are in effect, not adhering to their own beliefs by not deferring to God for judgement of them.

So they go to all this trouble of trying to drum up a destruction by fire, thinking they know how God will judge them and find that God and find God says, no no, you have it all wrong, especially the part where you assume I would judge you to be righteous. Self-righteous perhaps, but that is different than righteous.

Thoughts?
Sorry but the book of revelation isn't prophecy -- at least not from a purely exegetical view.

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Apocalypse

Owing to the patient and strenuous research of scholars, the interpretation of the Apocalypse has been transferred to a field free from the odium theologicum. But then the meaning of the Seer is determined by the rules of common exegesis. Apart from the resurrection, the millennium, and the plagues preceding the final consummation, they see in his visions references to the leading events of his time. Their method of interpretation may be called historic as compared with the theological and political application of former ages. The key to the mysteries of the book they find in 17:8-14. For thus says the Seer: "Let here the mind that hath understanding give heed".
 
Jun 2014
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#5
Sorry but the book of revelation isn't prophecy -- at least not from a purely exegetical view.

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Apocalypse

Owing to the patient and strenuous research of scholars, the interpretation of the Apocalypse has been transferred to a field free from the odium theologicum. But then the meaning of the Seer is determined by the rules of common exegesis. Apart from the resurrection, the millennium, and the plagues preceding the final consummation, they see in his visions references to the leading events of his time. Their method of interpretation may be called historic as compared with the theological and political application of former ages. The key to the mysteries of the book they find in 17:8-14. For thus says the Seer: "Let here the mind that hath understanding give heed".

The Catholic Encyclopedia doesn't speak for the majority of Christians within the United States.
 
Jan 2016
46,390
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#6
God gave Noah a rainbow sign, said no more water, be the fire next time.

From the old African-American spiritual "Oh Mary, Don't You Weep".

They were singin' that in them ol' cotton fields at LEAST a full century before the first nuclear bomb was exploded at Alamagordo.

Eerie, right?
 
Jun 2013
17,078
14,566
Here
#7
Sorry but the book of revelation isn't prophecy -- at least not from a purely exegetical view.

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Apocalypse

Owing to the patient and strenuous research of scholars, the interpretation of the Apocalypse has been transferred to a field free from the odium theologicum. But then the meaning of the Seer is determined by the rules of common exegesis. Apart from the resurrection, the millennium, and the plagues preceding the final consummation, they see in his visions references to the leading events of his time. Their method of interpretation may be called historic as compared with the theological and political application of former ages. The key to the mysteries of the book they find in 17:8-14. For thus says the Seer: "Let here the mind that hath understanding give heed".

Seer Synonyms | Collins English Thesaurus

As any human being can note, there are many views of Christianity and theories surrounding it. For many people, there are as many beliefs or more, regarding eschatology and accepted Biblical scripture being prophecy of something yet to come, either inclusive of what has already occurred or exclusive.

Discussion of an "end times" is not exclusive to Christianity or even the religious.

It would seem quite obvious that for those who do not see any passages in Bible related to Christianity, as prophecy, the OP would not apply, no?

One might suggest that Christianity is perhaps one of the least cohesive and united religions that exists, for all those who claim to be "Christian" as it appears to be full of interpretation and there are huge numbers of variations in interpretation, leading to some rather violent and bloody struggles, regarding which interpretations were to dominate the world of Christian belief. In many ways, it is almost more political than any secular political party domination and in terms of manipulative power of the masses, more powerful.
List of Christian denominations by number of members - Wikipedia

Eschatology - Wikipedia

The OP is regarding the question of those who see scripture about any sort of "end times" as prophecy of those end times and whether, if one believes in and Abrahamic God, any god, or no god, efforts to precipitate events noted as "signs" or triggers for something like an apocalypse or "Armageddon", actually mean the event tied to the prophecy has taken place or because it is "forced". it is merely a human forced event that results in NO event like a "Second Coming"........ If you would like to address that question, please do.
 
Last edited:
Feb 2011
15,417
9,888
The formerly great golden state
#8
It is said that "Armageddon" will precipitate or be a part of the precipitation of the second coming of Christ and for this reason, some who claim to believe in Christ have not just cozied up to Israel (to the discomfort of a fair number of Jews, because of the reasons behind the coziness and friendliness), but some, by their actions appear to be actively working in ways that would essentially "set off" an Armageddon type event, under the assumption they would see the other side of it on the "right hand" of God.

A couple of questions.

What does the Bible say about one assuming righteousness for themselves, rather than leaving that up to their God to judge?

If an Armageddon type destruction by fire (caused by human made weapons) event is essentially the result of those trying to force a prophecy because they believe they would personally benefit from it, has the prophecy really been fulfilled and count as fulfillment of the destruction by fire part of the prophecy that will lead to the rest of the prophecy or will it simply be an Armageddon like event that only includes the destruction by fire, but not all the "good stuff" those working to cause the event were expecting/assuming for themselves?

Even if an Armageddon type event came from out of the blue and could in no way be attributed to any human contributions to forcing it to occur, what if all the expectant, assuming "Christians" came face to face with their maker and he told them they were wrong to assume/usurp his judgement about them and sent them to the dark, rather than the light side of the aftermath?

My interpretation is that in the eyes of God, humility is a good thing/virtue, mainly because he doesn't want or warrant any competition for his judgement. Thus when anyone assumes to know or thinks they know how God will ultimately judge them and their lives, they are in effect, not adhering to their own beliefs by not deferring to God for judgement of them.

So they go to all this trouble of trying to drum up a destruction by fire, thinking they know how God will judge them and find that God and find God says, no no, you have it all wrong, especially the part where you assume I would judge you to be righteous. Self-righteous perhaps, but that is different than righteous.

Thoughts?
My first thought is that the belief that a destruction by nuclear fire will bring about the second coming and that the true believers will be at the right hand of god is a dangerous belief. Should someone actually get to the position of having the power to bring about that destruction, that person just might decide to pull the trigger in hopes of bringing about the final judgement.

The truth is that a nuclear war would be caused by man, not by god, and would result in setting civilization back, perhaps back to the stone age. It would be an unmitigated disaster and wouldn't trigger a return of an ancient god/man to rule the Earth.

Some beliefs based on people's interpretation of ancient writings are harmless, others might actually be beneficial. That one is downright dangerous.
 
Jan 2007
7,548
480
Irrelevant
#9
The Catholic Encyclopedia doesn't speak for the majority of Christians within the United States.
What about common exegesis, hmmm?

You would have us believe that the seer of pathmos was talking about events 2000 years in the future rather than events occurring at his own time?

duh?
 
Jan 2007
7,548
480
Irrelevant
#10
Seer Synonyms | Collins English Thesaurus

As any human being can note, there are many views of Christianity and theories surrounding it. For many people, there are as many beliefs or more, regarding eschatology and accepted Biblical scripture being prophecy of something yet to come, either inclusive of what has already occurred or exclusive.

Discussion of an "end times" is not exclusive to Christianity or even the religious.

It would seem quite obvious that for those who do not see any passages in Bible related to Christianity, as prophecy, the OP would not apply, no?
Prophecy is not confined to future events. In its widest sense, prophecy is a gift of knowledge -- knowledge that cannot be known through the natural light of reason -- whether it be in the past, present or future. It is in this sense that revelation is prophecy.

One might suggest that Christianity is perhaps one of the least cohesive and united religions that exists, for all those who claim to be "Christian" as it appears to be full of interpretation and there are huge numbers of variations in interpretation, leading to some rather violent and bloody struggles, regarding which interpretations were to dominate the world of Christian belief. In many ways, it is almost more political than any secular political party domination and in terms of manipulative power of the masses, more powerful.
List of Christian denominations by number of members - Wikipedia

Eschatology - Wikipedia

The OP is regarding the question of those who see scripture about any sort of "end times" as prophecy of those end times and whether, if one believes in and Abrahamic God, any god, or no god, efforts to precipitate events noted as "signs" or triggers for something like an apocalypse or "Armageddon", actually mean the event tied to the prophecy has taken place or because it is "forced". it is merely a human forced event that results in NO event like a "Second Coming"........ If you would like to address that question, please do.
I understand what you are asking in the op. But as I have pointed out, the op is based on a wrong premise. It would have been a simple matter to say that I do not subscribe to your interpretation of the book of revelation. End of story. But the thing is, your interpretation serves no other purpose than to sow religious and racial hatred. In that light, I am compelled to offer a more plausible and logical take on what the book is actually saying.