How Should We Handle North Korea?

How Should We Handle North Korea?

  • Sanctions

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Talk with North Korea

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Destroy Missile Before It Is Launched

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Destroy Missile After It Is Launched

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Invade North Korea

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Other

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    0
O

Orthodox Marxist

Sounds like cheering to me. I don't have a problem is thousands of my fellow citizens die for what they believe in, no not at all. If you don't like the president then that is fine I will argue with you about that all day, but don't insult or cheer the deaths of American soldiers. My best friend spent a year over there building schools, water treatment plants and slaughter houses for fresh meat to help these people the best he could. So don't you ever insult or show indifference to the deaths of those that are doing what they feel is right and risk their lives to defend us.
I wouldnt be surprised if he spent an equal amount of time shooting children as well.

If he only wants oil then where is the oil? THe Iraqis control all of the oil not us.
Oil for food scandal anyone.
 
O

Orthodox Marxist

Then, when somebody suggests that America mind its own business and stay out of things, manage its own affairs until there is some real need to defend itself, you suggest that it was America's policy of minding its own business that led to WWII.
There is a distinct difference between Iraq, world affairs today and WW2.

In world war 2 Nazi lies and aggression were the cause of the war however in Iraq it was American lies and aggression that caused the war.

Either you meddle in other country's affairs and pre-emptively try to ward off threats, or you don't. The devil's advocate is among us.
My suggestion was to not take the isolationist approach that was common in the 20`s 30`s and early 40`s meddle in the affairs of other countries however do so peacefully.[/quote]
 
S

splansing

Or not

When it comes time for violence, you'll know it. You know how you can recognize it? Because everybody in the world is standing right next to you, pulling on their gloves and slapping the magazine into the rifle. Bush Sr's combination of patience, diplomacy, and irresistable force was a perfect example of how to get things done these days.

The U.N. should be more powerful in this modern world, not less. The U.S. cannot play world cop. The world is too big and you make too many enemies that way. The U.N. has the power of solidarity. Hard for people to cry Foul! when pretty much the entire rest of the world has called you in for an intervention. Instead, Bush Jr pretty much emasculated the U.N. by throwing their wishes and their recommendations right back in their faces and doing what he wanted to do, bullying whatever supporters into joining him he could, and ignoring everybody else. He showed the utmost disrespect for democratic process and for a diplomatic approach to solving problems. That is how he discredited his administration. America itself is a democracy (or it was), and yet he showed little concern for the fact that an overwhelming majority of the nations in the U.N. were passionately arguing against an invasion. Just shoved them out of the way and moved in and started destroying infrastructure and killing people. And months later, when no weapons turned up, and the oldest and most priceless artifacts in human history were looted or destroyed, and when no significant terrorist links had been found, and it turned out that Iraq was a complicated mix of different cultures that were pretty fucking far from welcoming us into their homeland, and the forces allocated for the job were pitifully short, and the pathetic display of declaring victory years ago had come and gone, the idiot bully with the large protruding forehead wants to pretend it never happened. And all of his fucking cronies are running around telling us that we're assholes if we say that he was wrong. Just like an idiot bully who refuses to fess up to his own bullshit.
 
L

lessonsfromhistory

Marx. Most of what you posted is trash and I don't have to repond now. Read the book Cobra II though.
 
M

Maritxu

I have to disagree with you Lesson, I thought Marxist was great!
Everything he said was like a bomb! and true!

In this thread I relised that some of you guys seem to forget who put Sadam in power. How many dictator weren't put there by the US...?
Thank God that they want to bring democracy to the world... I wonder what would happen if they wanted to bring destuction and kaos.
 
I

Inkslinger

Most of what you posted is trash and I don't have to repond now. Read the book Cobra II though.
Pretty much ALL of what you post is shit. Read the Constitution though.
 
L

lessonsfromhistory

I don't normally get like this but you make me really angry.


I usually have that effect with Republicans
Communists seem to have that effect with any rational person.


The President of the United States is not a mass murderer.


Sure he isnt and thousands of innocent people didnt die in Iraq and Saddam had thousands of WMD's pointed at America I dont know what fairy tale your living in but for the rest of us there's the cold hard facts and the TRUTH.
If you read the book Cobra II which is the most intense and comprehensive study of the war thus far you will actually get the truth instead of what you would like it to be. The book is written by two guys from the NY Times and proves without a doubt that the administration on levels thought there were WMDs. From Bush, to Tommy Franks everyone felt that he had them. The President of Yeman who had close ties with Saddam told us that Saddam would use WMDs on us. The gernerals in the Republican Guard were all told by Saddam not to worry if we attacked becasue we he WMDs and the Americans would suffer terribly. The CIA tought he had them. Clinton told Bush that Saddam had them. MI6 thought he had them. A mistake is not a lie. Most of the deaths over there are caused by bombings. Not US forces. Sorry the truth is not what you want it to be.


This country is doing the best we can to defeat terror across the globe.


Sure you are detaining innocent people Indefinately, wire tapping your citizens phone calls, deporting innocent civilians to be tortured by foreign powers, or heck even torturing them yourselves is doing your best.

WAKE UP and smell the java.
REad my other post on the detainees. They are not innocent. Non Uniformed combatants who fire on US soldiers are not innocent. We are not wire tapping. We see if you are calling Syria and Oman twenty times a day. Then we listen and only then. You have no proof that we are sending people to other countries to be tortured. All Al-Quida members are told to claim torture upon catpure and you are foolish enough to believe them.


In case you didn't notice we were attacked and almost 5,000 people died.



Sorry I havent been keeping track of coalition casualties in Iraq however the more the better if it wakes people up to the realities of the situation.

I was talking about 9/11. This kind of comment only proves that you are full of hate and have no reguard for life despite what you claim.


Here you sit high and mighty above it all spewing slander and lies


The truth isnt slander your almightly leader is a hypocritical mass murdering blood thristy pot smoking fraud and thats the truth.
Pot smoking? I think you have him confused with Bill Clinton. You are not speaking the truth though and therefore you are spewing slander and liable.



and promoting a stupid theory on government that will never work.


Communism might work then again it might not for all we know Marx could turn out to be wrong however seeing as how many of his predictions have turned out to be correct I dont think so.
What predictions?


What would you propose we do? Nothing? Sit back and waste our time and resources on a stupid governmental theory that has been used to slaughter millions?


I propose you learn to think for yourselves
You haven't. Anything the left spews you eat it up.


Those out there on the streets of Iraq are defending your freedom.


"Those out their on the strrets of Iraq" are defending the American perception of freedom that stretches back towards the days of manifest destiny.

Killing innocent children and waging a war of lies is not defending anyone's freedom all its doing is gaurding American imperialism and their oil ambitions.

You wanna know how much oil money we have gotten from Iraq? NONE. ZERO! They control all of their oil.


They are doing more than your own government is doing for you in order to keep you safe.


My own government is as hypocritical as yours I am equally agains the Afghanistan war and when Canadian soldiers die in Afganistan I again do not care.

This is disgusting.


The fight against global terror is everyone's fight but the USA is the only one waging the battle.


Theres more Republican propoganda for you equating the war in Iraq with terrorism is false.
Again, read the damn book then come back and we will talk.


In case you didn't notice your country was almost attacked a few weeks ago.

As of yet those are unproven accusations in fact and Islamic advocate for peace who lives in Canada has said they were being unfairly targeted.
Yes, ignore all the evidence. The weeks of survallance and believe some guy with an agenda. Okay. At least proves there is a method to your madness.


Was that Bush's fault as well?



No that was Liberal Canada's fault for allowing themselves to be drawn into the afghanistan war
If there was ever a jus war it was that war. Afghanistan is now a free country. Thank you for what little help you gave Canada.


Wait, don't answer that because you think it is. You know what stopped the attack on your country from going ahead? Domestic spying. Your military and the will to live free.

The domestic spying that goes on In Canada is in no way on the level of that which goes on in the United States law enforcement must go before a judge and obtain a warrant for wire tapping etc based on "reasonable cause" aka evidence.

So we can infer they must have had some evidence before they decided to spy on these people however, the way it works in America you can spy upon whomever you wish without any evidence, you can detain anyone you wish without any evidence, and finally you can deport anyone you wish without any evidence.
Not true. We can only spy on those who call terrorist nations repeatedly and we can only detain non uniformed combatants.


All things that you hate but also keep you alive. You sicken me. If the moderators want to ban me then go ahead. I won't sit by and let some communist from another country tell me that it is okay that soldiers from my country are dying and then cheer their deaths. That goes for you too Inky. You both make me sick! Let me lay it out for you in terms you might able to understand"

American Imerialism only increases the threats to my nation as terrorists may try to travel through Canada to attack the states.

No Bush has if anything has done my nation and the world a great disservice.

Then tighten your damn borders. It seems like your government is doing a good job of stopping them anyway.


1. The Russians, the CIA and MI5 all thought that Saddam was developing weapons.

They all turned out to be wrong however, Russia was the only one not willing to go to war based on lies.

So they all got together and lied? Right. Lol. Read the book then we will talk.




2. Saddam was fishing around in Nigeria. The number export of Nigeria is....plutonium!


Maybe however they also export other things suppose I go to vegas next weekend do you have any proof that am I going to gamble?
It is more than likely!



3. Saddam was funding PLO terror groups. Since this is a war on terror....


he may have been however after your war of aggression started he really didnt have much to lose now did he.
What agression? He did this even before the Gulf War.


4. He broke 12 UN resolution and told his generals and people inside his government that he had WMDs



Iraq hasnt had WMD's since the gulf war a fact that your administration was well aware of besides the U.S ignored the U.N completely and waged a war they said was illegal.
Actually we thought he did. Read the book.



5. He provided medical attension to Al-Quiada members


Do you have any proof of this.

Yeah I will get back to you on this. Gotta go to work now.


All of these facts and more lead our government to beleive that he had WMDs. Getting bad info and acting on it is not a lie. It is an honest mistake. Keep in mind that Congress had to approve that action in Iraq. So don't go telling me that Bush did this all on his own to make oil money because you are lying.



I think what you meant to say is all of these lies and more keep in mind the U.N and most of the world did not approve of the actions taken in Iraq.

Besides Congress is a joke lined with Bush supporters and buy offs.

As for oil perhaps you havent heard America`s supply will be depleted within 20 years and which nation in the east is one of the richest in oil if you guessed Iraq you are correct.

Actually pall we get more oil from Canada. Suadi Arabia has more oil than Iraq. Iraq controls there own oil money. Before you debate get some facts instead of spewing Communist propoganda.
 
P

Pook

All things that you hate but also keep you alive. You sicken me. If the moderators want to ban me then go ahead. I won't sit by and let some communist from another country tell me that it is okay that soldiers from my country are dying and then cheer their deaths. That goes for you too Inky. You both make me sick! Let me lay it out for you in terms you might able to understand"
Naaaah, let's him stay and continue to become even sicker with us as we share our views too. Then we'll see what he thinks of Bush's "health care" agenda when he gets well.

I don't think we need to be telling others they can't test missiles. We do it. As for why our troops are in Iraq, of course it's oil. If it wasn't Bush's personal agenda, we'd be trying to help the mess in the Sudan.

Purrs,
Pookie[/quote]
 
S

splansing

I was so confused

I didn't realize that I was doing it wrong. I figured that by gathering information from a lot of different sources, domestic and foreign, that I would end up with a pretty good picture of what's going on. Turns out, all I have to do is read one book, Cobra II, and I'll know all I need to know about what was going on inside everybody's heads before we invaded Iraq.

I'm guessing Cobra II doesn't dwell on things like the analysts in the CIA who were adamant that Saddam had no weapons, up until the point that they were simply fired or re-assigned to nowhere. And that it makes light of the inspection teams that were actually in Iraq who said that there was no way that there were any weapons. The objections of most of Europe to an invasion without any provocation or proof. The objections of Colin Powell, who saw the first draft of his presentation to the UN and said that he would not go in front of the UN with "this shit." Who was not subtle about his own convictions that an invasion was unwarranted and dangerous.

Despite its catchy and macho title-- carefully crafted to appeal to shoot-em-up gung-ho types who don't have the patience for detailed analysis --Cobra II is no more of a definitive source than any other single source on the subject. Any one source is biased in terms of which information is included and which information is given credence.

Pro-Bush people often claim that there was no way to know and that it was a judgement call and that Bush made it and now we have to stand by him. But people who hate Bush for that decision (above all else) do not see it that way. Invading Iraq without any realistic chance of orchestrating a peaceful change is not a judgement call. Getting us stuck in a hell hole-- which a lot of people foresaw, despite the claims in Cobra II --that has no foreseable end, is not a judgement call. Invading another country and attempting to dictate to them what their new government is going to be is not a fucking judgement call. I can't even believe any American can say it's reasonable for a President to make a judgement call based on nebulous intelligence to totally invade and conquer another country. You had better be damn positive you know exactly what is going on before you make that decision. Not to mention that if you're going to pull the trigger, you had better have a plan that includes restoring order and protecting the resources and infrastructre of the country, not just clearing out the existing power structure and stepping back for a few weeks.

You want an argument in favor of Iraq, in favor of Bush's decision? There's only one that's reasonable that I've considered so far. If you can create turmoil in Iraq, you will attract the attention of Islamic crusaders and idealists from around the world who see their chance to kick Uncle Sam in the teeth and reclaim a once secular state for their Islamic world once again. The worst of the worst will gravitate towards the situation and make their preparations to blow themselves up. That in itself is a fairly weak argument, the old, "I'd rather fight them over there than over here." Because that in itself won't stop us from being attacked here as well. (In fact, nothing will stop us from being attacked again.) But there are so many sects within Islam that are sworn enemies of each other that they will end up fighting with each other for possession of Iraq. In the end, the issue may consume the passion and resources of militant Muslims around the world. It may precipitate a war between Kurds and Shiites and Sunis, which would attract even more of the militant fanatics, and kill off a good portion of them over the coming decades. So go ahead and let Iraq fall to pieces, and let tens of thousands and ultimately millions be killed. It's like taking something away from a baby; you just distract them with something else, get them focused on fighting for the holy land in Iraq amongst themselves, and let them do the dirty work of killing off the worst part of Islam for us.

This is a cold and calculating concept. It involves trading the lives of a lot of people for our own security and relative peace. It involves recognizing that you cannot reason with militant Islam and doing what it takes to damage militant Islam as deeply as possible, and all without putting our own troops on the front lines, for the most part. I can't even say I would completely disagree with the idea. Militant terrorist Islamic groups have made it clear it's us or them. So, at the cost of tens of thousands (at least) of basically innocent citizens, this is a plan that will redirect the fanatical religious terrorists away from America for a time and inward upon themselves. You might even reasonably argue that these fanatics are hellbent on killing somebody anyway, and it may as well be going on in Baghdad where they are trying to kill each other, than in Europe or America, where they are trying to kill me.

I'm not saying this is my position. I'm just saying it's the only one that doesn't reek of hypocrisy as far as I'm concerned. Whether the use of the masses as pawns in the game of national security is something you have the stomach for is debatable. But at least it's honest. What's more, this strategy explains a lot about the things that do not make any sense about this war. Why does Bush insist on prosecuting a war without concrete evidence? Why does he never deliver anything that explains or justifies his thinking on the subject? Because this strategy of turning Islam in on itself only works if they don't know that's what you're doing. It only works if the President takes a huge approval rating hit and appears to be very unpopular here. It only works if the militant elements think they are somehow winning by increasing war weariness in this country, which they do by increasing chaos in Iraq, which they do by killing each other... If this is actually what is happening, then Bush is sacrificing his legacy and his political future in order to pull this thing off. And if it works, and 5 years from now the Americans are gone from Iraq and they are killing each other at a record pace over there, we will all have to re-evaluate Bush as a strategist and a player on the world stage.

Unless you're one of those peaceniks who thinks that we should reason with people first. Usually, I am. But I don't know enough about the situation, in all honesty, to tell you for sure that this would not be the best strategy that would save the most American lives and offer the best opportunity to discharge the militant Muslim batteries that are ready to go in the world right now. I just don't know.

Just don't tell me it was about WMD, or I'll assume you just aren't paying attention.
 
M

Maritxu

I didn't realize that I was doing it wrong. I figured that by gathering information from a lot of different sources, domestic and foreign, that I would end up with a pretty good picture of what's going on. Turns out, all I have to do is read one book, Cobra II, and I'll know all I need to know about what was going on inside everybody's heads before we invaded Iraq.
Good one splansing! Actually most of your post is a pure source of common sense!

Maybe you don't have to try talking to terrorists, but at least don't give them more reasons to hate you