Is European Freedom Of Speech Better Than American?

Sep 2016
1,587
212
Germany
#71
No one answered? Whatever. I like to say here "Thank you" to Mr. Karl Lagerfeld, because he spoke out what some people thought but suppressed. A German "taboo-theme":

On French TV show Salut Les Terrains, Karl said, “One cannot—even if they are decades between them—kill millions of Jews so you can bring millions of their worst enemies in their place.” Karl Lagerfeld criticized how Germany has welcomed more than one million refugees from the Syrian crisis. He even went on to say, “I know someone from Germany who took a young Syrian and after four days said, ‘The greatest thing Germany invented was the Holocaust.’” He followed up by saying, “Merkel had already millions and millions (of immigrants) who are well integrated and who work and all is well … she had no need to take another million to improve her image as the wicked stepmother after the Greek crisis.”
source: Karl Lagerfeld attacks Angela Merkel with holocaust comment - Lifestyle - The Jakarta Post

You are the bad guy now Karl, but wonderful that one man had the courage to say this. Again: "Thank you, Karl". I agree with you that it made not a big sense to bring so many people from of Arabian culture to Germany, because we never had an experience in history with people from the Arabian world. This caused and will cause problems - for example with the Clan structure of the people from this area. And for sure anti-Semitism (also caused from so called refugees) and a new form of Nazism (also against refugees) grows in Germany very fast meanwhile. The whole situation is worrying.

This politics of Angela Merkel frustrated also all our European neighbors and had an effect in the national referendum, which leaded to the Brexit. It was not a masterpiece of politics. Nevertheless I think Angela Merkel really tried to help - that was her motivation. But to say "I made everything right" is indeed only her calculated optimism.

[video=youtube;lLx6_XueX_o]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLx6_XueX_o[/video]
 
Last edited:
Dec 2013
3,301
2,212
Switzerland
#72
Anyway migrants arelike tides, you cannot stop it and our European economies were built also on migrants work...... It is never totally white or black...... People are more against migrants in places where they are not so many.... like in the former DDR. MIgrants crystalize our fears of what is unknown..... When we get used to it, it is more difficult to project them on a specific group etc......
 
Likes: 2 people
Sep 2016
1,587
212
Germany
#73
Anyway migrants arelike tides,
What a nonsense.

you cannot stop it and our European economies were built also on migrants work.
Built on what? ... The most Germans have a background as migrants on their own.

..... It is never totally white or black...... People are more against migrants in places where they are not so many.... like in the former DDR.
This "antifascist bulwark" overflew Germany after the reunion on a very simple reason with Nazis - Commies and Nazis were the same people and both are structural similar ideologies. Antifascism was only an empty phrase of the Commies. The GDR was always a country full of racists. Now lots of this people - and specially their ideas - define a big part of the German politics and realities.

MIgrants crystalize our fears of what is unknown..... When we get used to it, it is more difficult to project them on a specific group etc......
The refugees of the year 2015 (all together about 2 million) will cost Germany in total about 500 billion Euro more money than they will be able to pay back in taxes and in social security systems. It's not a good buisness to do such things. I don't say it is wrong what we did - but everyone should know to help refugees costs money. And it's a little difficult to explain this costs to the 10% of all Germans who have more debts, than they ever will be able to pay back, because of the exorbitant high costs in Germany. The 3% of the people with the lowest income in Germany pay 5% of the taxes for example. So the poor pay relatively higher taxes than all others.

To reduce all people and all problems to a little love for migrants and/or hate against migrants is only a little part of all this problems. And do not forget: We had often in history in Europe the situation that people lived "multi-culturally" together - often hundreds of years without problems - and suddenly the people started to fight against each other. You can hear a gigantic amount of such stories on the Balkan for example: neighbors murdered neighbors on no reason to do so only because of hate speech or political propaganda. If someone suffers fear then this is not always only because he is an idiot, who needs only another political opinion. Sometimes problems are real problems - for example the problems of a doctor who is not able to pay his own health insurance or the problems of a homeless man who has a good job but not enough money to rent an apartment.

[video=youtube;AjBK5zvLWyQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjBK5zvLWyQ[/video]
 
Last edited:
Dec 2013
3,301
2,212
Switzerland
#74
I will give you the example of my country, Switzerland. When I was a kid in the 1950ties we had about 4 millions inhabitants, now we are 8,3 millions. It is mainly the result of immigration even if we live longer. Swiss women with the very low birth rate without what brought foreigners would never have made possible to increase the global population. And the same about prosperity. Without foreign workers where would we be now ? And even with refugees the situation is about the same. We welcome a lot of Hungarians after 1956, a lot of Csechs after 1958 and a lot of people from the Balkans in the 1990ties together with all of the Gastarbeiter coming from Italy first, then Spain and afteer Portugal, not to speak about the Turks or Kurds. Most of them did integrate and now I see a lot of students with Albanian cultural roots in Gymnasium. Of course it takes time to have these people adjust, but their children become often more Swiss than Swiss. There are always problems of adjustments and it is not easy to digest a great number of newcomers somethime, but the trend is mostly positive even if it costs money and we all pay taxes for that. And when you make comparisons about who pays more tax than others, you should also integrate in your vision the social benefits given to some and not to all. I do not say that the mutaitons on the go are always pleasant to live with, but we need also to balance one way or the other our aging native population. Look at Japan and the problem of the decrease of its population, Something needs there to be done.^?
 
Likes: 2 people
Sep 2014
2,376
535
Barsoom
#75
The two vary in only one relevant way, for purposes of this thread: In the US, we believe that the cure for horrible ideas is for citizens to shout at them, without aid of the government censoring the other guy.

In the EU (as well as Canada, I think) the citizens DO expect the government to censor citizens with horrible ideas.

This difference is wildly believed to account for the somewhat more noisy and raucous protests and counterprotests that occur in the US as compared to Europe. (That's a BIG generalization.) Since 95% of this board "wishes protesters could be more polite and respectful", seems worth looking at.



https://qz.com/993672/a-controversial-museum-is-forcing-italy-to-talk-about-its-fascist-past/?utm_source&google_editors_picks=true

If the US adopts the rule of law that our government can censor hate speech, how to we go on to discuss our own history? How do we honor our heroes and condemn our enemies within?

Why is it so much better to award MORE power to the government that it is to tolerate there (mostly law-abiding) protests and counter-protests over Trump, etc.?

Your thoughts?
This difference is wildly believed to account for the somewhat more noisy and raucous protests and counterprotests that occur in the US as compared to Europe. (That's a BIG generalization.) Since 95% of this board "wishes protesters could be more polite and respectful", seems worth looking at.
Keep in mind the Constitution never protected protests as that is a twentieth century Supreme Court creation by collapsing the assembly and redress clause with the freedom of speech clause.
 
Sep 2016
1,587
212
Germany
#76
I will give you the example of my country, Switzerland. When I was a kid in the 1950ties we had about 4 millions inhabitants, now we are 8,3 millions. It is mainly the result of immigration even if we live longer. Swiss women with the very low birth rate without what brought foreigners would never have made possible to increase the global population. And the same about prosperity. Without foreign workers where would we be now ? And even with refugees the situation is about the same. We welcome a lot of Hungarians after 1956, a lot of Csechs after 1958 and a lot of people from the Balkans in the 1990ties together with all of the Gastarbeiter coming from Italy first, then Spain and afteer Portugal, not to speak about the Turks or Kurds. Most of them did integrate and now I see a lot of students with Albanian cultural roots in Gymnasium. Of course it takes time to have these people adjust, but their children become often more Swiss than Swiss. There are always problems of adjustments and it is not easy to digest a great number of newcomers somethime, but the trend is mostly positive even if it costs money and we all pay taxes for that. And when you make comparisons about who pays more tax than others, you should also integrate in your vision the social benefits given to some and not to all. I do not say that the mutaitons on the go are always pleasant to live with, but we need also to balance one way or the other our aging native population. Look at Japan and the problem of the decrease of its population, Something needs there to be done.^?
The problem is the logic of the German politics. If we like to find a result then we throw dices. If we get the result 42 than everything seems to be okay - but no one knows why. We don't know for example where thousands of "umF" or "MUFL" could be ("unbegleitete minderjährige Flüchtlinge") - we call them "umA" too ("unbegleitete minderjährige Ausländer_innen"). This teenager without parents found either ways how to live in Germany or not. Prostitution? Who knows? If any of the information we have about them should be correct at all. A 17 years old ¿refugee? for example had raped and murdered a 19 years old German student. I wonder myself how Mrs. Merkel is able to explain her parents "I made everything right in 2015". They found out with biological methods (tooth growth) that he was not 17 but was 24 years old when he had murdered her. I don't know how many people how often said "Lot of this children look like adults, somehow strange." Normal answer of German professionals "Muslims always look older" or a comparable bullshit. We miss for example also 30000 rejected asylum seekers. We don't know where they are. Are they in a new underground? China for example is not accepting Germans with a Turkish name any longer - or Germans which were in Turkey for a longer time, because they live in fear of terrorism. Our politics of Germany causes for Germans more and more problems. No wonder that some Germans prefer to live in Switzerland, where they have also to do with a lot of negative emotions against German migrants - what's on the other side not only the fault of Swiss people. But also in Switzerland - as in Germany and Austria too - grows a new Nazi wave, isn't it? So who are the idiots, who cause this all? And why think so many people some nice words about migrants help to solve all this - and much more - problems?

[video=youtube;7NHzajc-EoE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NHzajc-EoE[/video]
 
Last edited:
Dec 2013
3,301
2,212
Switzerland
#77
You know in a debate there is always a temptation to argue with individual cases to make a point. But what you need also to look at is where mutatiosn in our societies lead us and it is not the question of one individual but of many. How many people do you need tomake a trend. We have exactly the same problem with minors, your umA, in Switzerland but I know some who after arriving at 15 here are now studying in universities and others who deal drug. The real question is how many people can we integrate every year in our societies ? Is das Boot voll ?
 
Jun 2014
59,576
34,034
Cleveland, Ohio
#78
What about to visit Europe? If you are not a naturalized citizen of the USA then you can visit Europe forever - even without any dollar costs. The way: Have pains -> go into a hospital -> let yourself make to a drug addict in this US-hospital -> drive car under influence of medicine (drugs) -> find a nice policemen => and without any problem you can become a German in the age of 60, when you had arrived in the USA as a German in the age of 6 months. And because you are not a citizen of the USA any longer no one cares anything about how to understand what you say. Keeps the problem: You will never see the USA again, because of your entry ban on reason of illegal immigration.

Evelyn Beatrice Hall in a biography about Voltaire: "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it". This sentence is a standard of the western civilization.

Declaration of human rights: Article 19: Right to freedom of opinion and expression:

Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.
I am not quite understanding you. Are you saying the US deports sickly naturalized citizens? (Could be, though I never heard this specific complaint before.)
 
Jun 2014
59,576
34,034
Cleveland, Ohio
#79
Denmark had their own girls collaborating with the enemy. We learned all about them in school, as well as about the resistance.
I don't know enough about any specific collaborator or about collaboration in general to have strong opinions, and that wasn't why I referred to them earlier in this thread.

My point was simply that sanitizing our history does a disservice to our citizens.
 
Jun 2014
59,576
34,034
Cleveland, Ohio
#80
I think the main reason why America still haven't solved their racial problems, is because the blacks were never herded into camps and gassed to death en masse, so the madness was there to see for everyone. The madness was always only pinpricks.

[video=youtube;98CxkS0vzB8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98CxkS0vzB8[/video]
This is certainly one way of looking at things. My own experience has led me to conclude that racism in America is the fuel in an enormous wealth-generating engine, and that the PTB actively work to preserve or reinvent it.
 
Last edited:

Similar Discussions